No, Lionel, since the beginning, it is the ideas of the Council itself that as been contested. If you just read the book that Mgr Lefebvre wrote, you will see he criticize entire sentences from the Council and the ideas themself as all his successors did. The idea of two interpretations. We think one is worst but the two of them are bad.
POPE CONTRADICTS BIBLE, CARDINAL LEVADA ISSUES NO CLARIFICATION. EXPECTS OFFICAL CLARIFICATION FROM BISHOP FELLAY There are two errors of Pope Benedict in Light of the World p.107:- 1) He assumes that those saved in invincible ignorance etc are exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and to Ad Gentes 7, Vatican Council II even though we do not know any of these cases saved in invincible ignorance etc. Since we do not know any of these cases saved they cannot be explicit exceptions …[Altro]
That don't delete my doubts at all. By the way, what make you so sure of what is dividing the Church and the sspx? You are not of the sspx as I know so except if you was there during the discussion, there is no way you can be sure of what you're saying. About the definition of a civil right in the Council : what the usefulness? All state's constituion define them? The Council is supposed to define spiritual thing not that kind of stuff. Maybe that's why they say it is an agreement with the world...
Msgr. Guido Pozzo could announce Vatican Council II agrees with literal interpretation of dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus while Nostra Aetate says Catholics are the ‘new people of God’ : pope made an error in Light of the World- all this is relevant to the Vatican-SSPX differences
For political reasons Ecclesia Dei is not admitting the truth about Vatican Council II.
Msgr. Guido Pozzo Secretary of the Pontifical Commission “Ecclesia Dei” – the Vatican body … [Altro]
Declaration on Religious Freedom-Dignitatis Humanae
2. This Vatican Council declares that the human person has a right to religious freedom. This freedom means that all men are to be immune from coercion on the part of individuals or of social groups and of any human power, in such wise that no one is to be forced to act in a manner contrary to his own beliefs, whether privately or publicly, whether alone or in association with others, within due limits. Lionel: So we do not force anyone. The … [Altro]
Lionel, This is not a problem between Chruch and political problem, it is a problem between God and each human being. Here again, as you can see, what distinguishs our ideas is from our definition of freedom. Maybe, if in the Council there were a clear definition of the freedom mentionned, the discussion could be easier. Sorry, I was not thinking about Nostra Aetate but Dignitatis Humanae. All the second part is really disturbing. Take that sentence for example : "Dieu, en effet, tient compte … [Altro]
coeur perce In Nostra Aetate, I saw things really worrying. Lionel: I have not found anything in Nostra Aetate which contradicts the literal intepretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. When will the SSPX comment on this?
Nostra Aetate 4 says the Church is the new people of God. I have not read anyway that the SSPX says Vatican Council II says the Church is the new people of God, Catholics are the chosen people of God.
Well, Lionel. The problem is most of the Council contains some sentences that are the source of many interpretations. This is why their is two interpretation of that Council. However, in some text of the Council there are sentence that are clearly against what the Church has taught. In Nostra Aetate, I saw things really worrying. The best solution would be to rewrite all the text, making disappear all these dangerous sentence and clarifying all the vague elements. One of the most important with … [Altro]
LIGHT OF THE WORLD ERROR SHOWS THAT THERE ARE NO REAL DOCTRINAL DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE VATICAN AND THE SSPX
Once we realize that we cannot telephone or fax someone saved in invincible ignorance and a good conscience the problem is resolved.We have to look at Vatican Council II in a different way. Why cannot all Catholic religious communities Franciscans, Dominicans, Jesuits, Society of St.Pius X etc affirm the literal interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla …[Altro]
coeur percé By invincible ignorance I means those who do not know about the Catholic Church and yet are believed to be saved. We do not know these cases. However in principle it is possible that they can be saved. God could send them a preacher before they die or even have them baptised.However the point is that we do not know if there are any such cases in the present time.(2012).We do not dispute the possibility of their being saved in the manner God chooses.
I don't know what you mean by "invicible ignorance", Lionel Andrades, but I know even in the sspx we know sometimes (but this is rare) some people are saved whereas there are not Christian. It is said that they are people that would have convert if they had met a missionary during their life. In that case, we speak about "baptême de désir". I don't know what the expression in English (that would look like "baptism of desire"). These are really rare case. I think these people receive really … [Altro]
'Light of the World' p.107 expresses Pope Benedict’s personal opinion or is the ordinary magisterium: the pope wrongly assumes those saved in invincible ignorance are known exceptions to the dogma and the SSPX position on ecumenism and non Catholic religions
A comment on this blog says that in Light of the World (Ignatius)p.107 the Holy Father was only expressing a personal opinion.Whether it was his personal opinion or the ordinary magisterium there was a factual, … [Altro]
There could soon be an 'ecclesial rupture' because the Vatican does not want to say that there can be two interpretations of Vatican Council II.
If the pope does not know personally of non Catholics saved in 2012 in invincible ignorance and when Vatican Council II does not make this claim of knowing explicit cases in real life how can the magisterium reject the SSPX doctrinal position on other religions, ecumenism and dialogue?
The International Theological Commission theological papers expose the cardinal and bishop’s teaching on visible baptism of desire and their rejection of the dogma and Vatican Council II text. May be its unintentional heresy. Let us give them the benefit of the doubt, but heresy it is. In the hierarchy of truths we are all obliged to believe in the Creed. In the Nicene Creed we … [Altro]
Excommunicated priests could cry foul: Members of the SSPX need to appeal to the pope to affirm Vatican Council II (AG 7) in public. It’s all there in writing.Dissent from a religious. Not a liberal priest or bishop, but Our Holy Father the pope himself. It’s hard to believe. It was something that was a suspicion for a long time but there was no proof.Now the pope has made an error and put it in writing. He can no more … [Altro]