John your "flat" out of fresh arguments===you use the same worn out one that everyone and their brother has refute you on the Internet for years--there like the wagon wheel--old and useless.

I am not concern about SSPX===you not addressing the Catholic concerns here---several links I posted that bury your whole theory about the New Church doing the work of the Holy Ghost. For the articles use Traditional Catholic teachings to refute your false ideas---but still you continue kick a dead horse … [More]

Why would anyone re-post something of their's when it was already deleted....seems there are some just seeking confrontation, whereas they would have been ousted Long ago if they acted in the same manner on other Catholic sites. Gloria tv has been very patient!

The Magisterium of Vatican II
Rev. Curzio Nitoglia
The errors of Vatican II and John Paul II on (a) personalism, (b) the 'extension' of the Church to non-Catholic sects, and (c) collegiality. (Sacerdotium 13, Autumn 1994)
[25 Nov 2000]

@ F. John Loughnan- The validity is not in question, the Mass of Paul VI is valid, even if offered in a poor way. Yes, in special circumstances the mass was celebrated in the catacombs (Roman sewers), in prisons in communist China, in the Latrines in the death camps of Dachau. But, we are not in those situations, now. Its not just abuses that are the problem with most of the parishes, but a whole attitudinal shift where tradition and Catholic identity is rejected, in preference of modern … [More]

John those things only apply to things that Catholic---Trent would condemned you and the N.O and V2. from the start. You can write quotes all night--but they only convict you.

If Trent wanted the N.O. Mess--they would have allowed the N.O. Mess at that time--for the protestant did very similar worship services and forced it on Catholic---did Trent say then we have two form in one rite---Heavens no--they did the opposite--they said we have one Mass--but now you want me to drink the poison … [More]

Just "movin on".....

John,

That is find---you are to angry to deal with and you carry to much hurt, scar tissue and baggage. I forgive you.

It is alright is man---it is cool. It is time to move on--life is bigger than SSPX---knowing the dirt of SSPX will not get anyone to Heaven.

We'll all been there--some just move on.

A Principe...keep up the good work!

“Let prayer delight thee more than disputations,
and the charity which buildeth up more than the
knowledge which puffeth up”, St Robert Bellarmine

Philosopher---If God is anything like He has been throughout history we have a great chastisement on our hands before anything is restored in the Church.

For crowd after V2 has made the Bride of Christ look to the world as the Whore of Babylon. Asking the Bride to commit adultery with all these world religions for the sake of: peace, unity, false ecumenism, interreligious dialogue, and religious liberty.

We will be punished for this and all the other abuses that go unchecked.

@Ben Martin- I agree with much of your diagnosis on the state of decline in the Church. I don't know what the answer is, its part cultural, part philosophical and part systemic failure on the human aspect (not sacred aspect) of the Church's hierarchy. I can only say, the probem of restoring the Church to a continuity with tradition cannot be solved without the help of the bishops. we need more men like Bsp. Burke.

Pax

"what would be an example of an intelligible reason that could bring about a change in hearts and minds?"

In a word beauty. In 1982 I was a 18 year old, agnostic-modern pagan living in Regensberg Germany, and I walked by historical curiosity into the Dom of St. Peters, built circa 12th century and stumbled upon an indult Tridentine mass to which I quietly sat down in the back row; I was never the same. The intelligible trace of beauty that I saw in stone and liturgy lead me to the Absolute … [More]

Philosopher--Which came first the chicken or the egg? What caused the mind shift in the people ---but changing the way they worship (Novus Ordo Mass) what reinforced this change was the Modernism that came from the top down after V2 opening the float gates to it. (Ton of example on the internet showing example and example and compare old to new--so I will not waste my time here)

But a key factor that no one is willing to look at is how did we get here---with the very Fathers of the V2 council- … [More]

You raised some good points.

For example:
Hearts and minds must change before attitudes change.

I agree although I probably would have said that hearts and minds must change before behavior changes.

This leads us to an important question.
What, in your estimation, would cause hearts and minds to change?

Would the cause be the result of something miraculous for which humans/Catholics have no control (other than prayer) or is it more likely that there would be an intelligible reason for the … [More]

@F. John Loughnan- the traditionalists have a point when they point out the novelities in novus ordo parishes. Why can't they offer the ordinary form like this?
http://southernorderspage.blogspot.com/2012/05/does-your-ordinary-form-pontifical-mass.html

@Ben Maritin, who said, Two style of worship---two style of belief. If you cannot see this than your are blind.

Have visited your local parish lately??---this is where the rubber meets the road---where the mission of the Church is fulfilled—

I … [More]

Ben, he'll never get over his grudge he has with the SSPX... Period. Sad for hiim.

John, again you never answered my questions--because you cant--but that is typical when you are cornered-- those who came from the rat camps of tradition learn to divert the topic.

Instead you love to divert it to SSPX is schism or not--who cares---it not my point =--your whole life and world is rapped up in SSPX--SSPX this and SSPX that--who cares. SSPX is the your whipping boy

Like Luke says--you cannot pick up your laundry from the dry cleaners with out blasting SSPX --you have evil agenda … [More]

So John do you think that those that regularly attend the N.O. Mass believe the same as those at Latin Mass with regards to faith and morals?

If you look at the fruits of New Mass and V2 it does not work out that way in reality----why else the rotten fruit and great of Apostasy of the average Joe Catholic today and their hierarchy if these two animals are the same and both blessing of the Holy Ghost?

Two style of worship---two style of belief. If you cannot see this than your are blind.

Have … [More]

Loughan....I truly believe it is You that may not be in full control of Your senses. It is quite apparent when reading your posts that you carry an arrogance about you as though you hold the answer to most everything. Sorry to disappoint you, but you do not. It also appears that you have been holding a grudge against the SSPX, due to some fall-out you may have had with them....it sure sounds it. More than likely, you probably do not look forward to any reconciliation between the SSPX and Rome, … [More]

Just a brief reflection.

There have been various forms of a low mass and a high mass within the Latin rite in the history of the Church. I tend to look upon the ordinary form (what some refer to as "novus ordo") as just another form of a low mass. My diocean parish offers both the extraordinary and ordinary masses, although I prefer the extraordinary, our ordinary is offered like this, (see link below) and I don't mind attending it when it is offered properly with the beauty and piety that it … [More]

So John do you personally prefer the Novus Mass over the Latin Traditional Mass?
If so why?

When did the Roman Rite in history every have two forms of the Mass in such as we do now?
If so were they ever so non-complementary as these two are two each other.

The only True Mass and that which gives Honor and Glory to God is the Traditional Latin Mass.