Questions Raised Over Communion Wine Hygiene

AN unholy headache is developing for major churches, with questions raised over whether sacramental wine passes hygiene standards. Former Warrnambool mayor Frank McCarthy, a devout Catholic, is calling …More
AN unholy headache is developing for major churches, with questions raised over whether sacramental wine passes hygiene standards.
Former Warrnambool mayor Frank McCarthy, a devout Catholic, is calling for the time-honoured tradition of drinking from a shared goblet during services to be scrapped.
Mr McCarthy said wholesale consumption of wine from the same chalice would not be allowed in any pub or restaurant and queried why churches were given an exemption.
The former businessman said the risk of spreading disease was heightened with a shared cup. “The rules and regulations surrounding beverages are pretty clear and no pub or soft drink seller would willingly allow the use of glasses for people to repeatedly drink out of,” Mr McCarthy said yesterday.
Continued Here.
Dr Bobus
The article by Donald Sanborn shows him to have the intellectual agility of an Abrams tank that has run out of fuel and ammunition.
1. Sanborn first speaks of using the science of Apologetics. Then he proceeds using Rhetoric, which lacks one of the premises (usually the major). So much for the scientific approach. The article is sloppy even for a beginning theology student.
2. De Lubac, whose work …More
The article by Donald Sanborn shows him to have the intellectual agility of an Abrams tank that has run out of fuel and ammunition.

1. Sanborn first speaks of using the science of Apologetics. Then he proceeds using Rhetoric, which lacks one of the premises (usually the major). So much for the scientific approach. The article is sloppy even for a beginning theology student.

2. De Lubac, whose work I do not like, was not silenced because of his Ecclesiology. It was his book Le Surnaturel, which muddles the distinction between nature and grace. Later, he wrote The Mystery of the Supernatural to explain himself, but there are also problems with it.

3. Re Lumen Gentium

A. In fact, Lumen Gentium not only did not minimize Papal authority, it expanded it. It also expanded the authority of Tradition (cf. the Universal Ordinary Magisterium on secondary objects of infallibility).

B. LG is an attempt to restore Ecclesiology based on the Church as Mystical Body of Christ (cf. St Thomas and St Augustine) rather than on the Church as Perfect Society.

C. It does not say that the RC Church and the Church of Christ are not the same thing. Rather it says that the Church of Christ subsists in the RC Church.

D. Unfortunately, it is too often forgotten that Christ the Priest is Head of the Church, the Head of the Mystical Body. Thus, whenever the Eucharist is celebrated, the Head of the Church is made present.
,
E. It does not say that those elements of sanctification that exist outside its visible confines (compages, if memory serves) mean that they are Churches. Of course, visible confines must be defined. IMHO, if Protestant Baptism is valid, then it does not exist outside the confines of the Church, even though the the active participants do.

Further, there is the question of what exactly are elements of sanctification? Does that refer to Protestant Baptism? Or to pagan rites? It must be pointed out that the latter follows from the Counter Reformation Sacramental Theology (cf Suarez) that dominated the Church for more than 300 years. This theology tried to explain ex opere operato as moral causality.

F. I am not crazy about the introduction of Communio (likely borrowed from the Russian sobornost) as a description of the Church, but I am dismayed by its application, which seems to exclude union by Truth. I think it should also be applied to liberals. Anyone (lay, priest, bishop) who is a dissenter on doctrine is not in Communion with the Church, no matter how often he speaks favorably of the pope.

G. Further, although any pope has the authority to promulgate a Missal (e.g., the Novus Ordo), de facto suppression of the Roman Rite raises the question whether he is in Communion with his predecessors.

H. I think that there are flaws in Vat II documents, but Sanborn doesn't seem to have much of an idea what they are.
Dr Bobus
Ben Martin,
I already knew you couldn't think. Now I realize you also cannot read.
1. I did not say that it was all about the language. I said that Latin was very important. You seem to think it doesn't matter, which is of course the position of Protestantism.
2. No, BXVI did not wear lay clothes to Vat II. In Germany (and other European nations) priests either wear the cassock or a black suit with …More
Ben Martin,

I already knew you couldn't think. Now I realize you also cannot read.

1. I did not say that it was all about the language. I said that Latin was very important. You seem to think it doesn't matter, which is of course the position of Protestantism.

2. No, BXVI did not wear lay clothes to Vat II. In Germany (and other European nations) priests either wear the cassock or a black suit with a dark sweater. They do not wear a black clothes with a collar because that is the way Protestant ministers dress.

3. Once again: When you say that there is no grace in the Novus Ordo, you are denying Papal Infallibility, which puts you in the Protestant camp.

4. I didn't say there was no rupture in faith. In fact, I clearly pointed out the influence of Protestantism on the liturgy.
holyrope 3
Why settle for a stone than a Diamond? The Latin Mass is the 'Diamond'...beautiful, filled with light, Precious and Valuable!
Ben Martin
Dr.,
You say there is no rupture in faith and it all about the language of the Mass. Please explain the following and justified the differences between the old and new (after VII) using only pre-Vatican II teachings and doctrine to support your proof: that there is no rupture in meaning or intent.
The old clearly condemns the new—use Catholic teaching to vindicate the new radical teachings in this …More
Dr.,

You say there is no rupture in faith and it all about the language of the Mass. Please explain the following and justified the differences between the old and new (after VII) using only pre-Vatican II teachings and doctrine to support your proof: that there is no rupture in meaning or intent.

The old clearly condemns the new—use Catholic teaching to vindicate the new radical teachings in this side by side comparison as one.

Good luck.

The New Ecclesiology: An Overview
Most Rev. Donald J. Sanborn
Vatican II's teaching about the nature of the Church, who belongs to it, salvation outside it, and why the teaching is explicitly heretical. (Catholic Restoration, Sep-Oct 2004)
[23 Oct 2005]

Side by Side comparison:

The New Ecclesiology: Documentation
Most Rev. Donald J. Sanborn
Side-by-side comparison of Vatican II and pre-Vatican II teaching on (1) Whether heretical and schismatic churches are part of Christ's Church. (2) Whether it is possible to be part of the Christ's Church without submission to the Pope. (3) Whether the 'one, holy, Catholic and apostolic Church' becomes 'present' in every valid celebration of the Eucharist. (4) Whether the Holy Ghost uses schismatic and/or heretical sects as means of salvation. [PDF, Catholic Restoration, Sep-Oct 2004]
[23 Oct 2005]
Ben Martin
Sounds like you are Modernist by your own definition and St Pius 10th
What was Radical in the 60's is standard for you today—now the "conservative" N.O. today
Like B16 who wore layman clothes to the council and was on Pius 12th black list for being liberal is not today's conservative, but the first pope to retire for relaxation.
Latin cannot protect abuse or bring holiness to foul words or bring …More
Sounds like you are Modernist by your own definition and St Pius 10th

What was Radical in the 60's is standard for you today—now the "conservative" N.O. today

Like B16 who wore layman clothes to the council and was on Pius 12th black list for being liberal is not today's conservative, but the first pope to retire for relaxation.

Latin cannot protect abuse or bring holiness to foul words or bring dignity to sacrilege. Latin can only protect the true intent—is not a cloak or bring legitimacy to protestant forms of worship and call it Catholic.

"Novus Ordo is without grace is an implicit denial of the Infallibility of the pope."---You do not know much about infallibility ---maybe pope worship but not infallibility.

What is the source of problem:---was bad theology and bad popes and evil hierarchy and Satan directing them.
Dr Bobus
1. If by Modernist, you mean someone who thinks that Revelation is without Divine origin and merely an expression of human religious instincts (cf Gnostics), then you're wrong—I'm not a Modernist.
And if by Modernist, you are referring to someone who thinks that dogma should be reformulated via ambiguities so that those who deny the dogma can affirm the reformulation, then you're wrong—I'm not …More
1. If by Modernist, you mean someone who thinks that Revelation is without Divine origin and merely an expression of human religious instincts (cf Gnostics), then you're wrong—I'm not a Modernist.

And if by Modernist, you are referring to someone who thinks that dogma should be reformulated via ambiguities so that those who deny the dogma can affirm the reformulation, then you're wrong—I'm not a Modernist.

On the other hand, if by Modernist you mean someone who thinks that certain adjustments should have been made to the 1962 Missal that are based on changing the archetype of the public low mass from the private low mass to the high mass, then I am a Modernist. I think that at parochial low masses of the TLM the people should also sing/recite the Pater Noster, and that certain parts of the introductory dialogue between priest and server might also include the people. I also think that the Epistle and Gospel should be read (in Latin) facing the people.

2. If you don't think that jettisoning Latin liturgy triggered the collapse of life in the Church, then you're unfamiliar with much of the pre-Vat II defense of Latin. It insisted that Latin is the protector of doctrine. It is the very nature of Latin that its character is transcendent--it is tied to no time and place.

3. Saying the Novus Ordo is without grace is an implicit denial of the Infallibility of the pope.

4. IMHO, the greatest factors in the liturgical wreckovation were the move to the vernacular (which permits celebrant ad libs), the introduction of commonplace concelebration (which undermines the sacrificial nature of the mass), and versus populum celebration (which is based on the Protestant Mass as Meal crapola).

5. As the liturgical mass was the source of the mess in the Church
Ben Martin
Dr. Bob,
Your comments are those of a modernist that does not know what he is doing for he was never taught properly.
Somehow praying abuse in Latin is more pure and holy to God in your eyes---even though it more offensive for it comes from more educate people, that are trying to please God using a Protestant style of worship and pure language to do so.
You think the language will cloak the problem …More
Dr. Bob,

Your comments are those of a modernist that does not know what he is doing for he was never taught properly.

Somehow praying abuse in Latin is more pure and holy to God in your eyes---even though it more offensive for it comes from more educate people, that are trying to please God using a Protestant style of worship and pure language to do so.

You think the language will cloak the problem

Well we got 50 years of rotten fruit that proves you absolutely wrong. As Christ said by their fruit you shall know them.

VII was a man designed revolution against the faith---and you’re bathing in it the heresy and sad thing is you do not even have the grace to see it. This is one of the great chastisements for the modern Catholic that goes unnoticed for New Mess does not supply the grace necessary to correct itself. Just as the Protestant sit in their punk think that everyone one is wrong---you do the same---trying to take two religions (Catholic and Novus Ordo) as make them the same

You can dream that the square peg goes in the round hole---but that is as far as you get. Theirs is a new theology and new form of worship that came from VII---the modern Church is not pure in its intent---does not have the four marks---but a trash pit of modern thought and theology that everyone excepts everyone---but the ones like me that want to keep the faith pure and holy---then they are enemy. Otherwise with ecumenism, the hierarchy take the Bride of Christ and ask her to commit adultery with the other religions of the world. Such as take place as Assisi--with the Buddha statue above the Tabernacle. That is love of Christ---from a Pope?

I rest my case---your defending evil and do not even see it---God help you.
Dr Bobus
Ben Martin,
Your comments sound like a drunk raving at the moon after midnight.
Of course, the Church is mess, and of course, the liturgy is the prime reason. Latin is important because it is Catholic, i.e., universal. Vernacular liturgy encourages vernacular morals and vernacular attitudes toward the faith. I recommend Veterum Sapientia.
When Fontgombault was forced to celebrate the Novus Ordo (…More
Ben Martin,

Your comments sound like a drunk raving at the moon after midnight.

Of course, the Church is mess, and of course, the liturgy is the prime reason. Latin is important because it is Catholic, i.e., universal. Vernacular liturgy encourages vernacular morals and vernacular attitudes toward the faith. I recommend Veterum Sapientia.

When Fontgombault was forced to celebrate the Novus Ordo (always in Latin) from the mid 70's until 1983, the life there didn't fall apart.

The theology of the Novus Ordo is the cause of vernacular versus populum celebration. Tied to that theology is a flawed theology of the priesthood (cf. Presbyterorum Ordinis).

And I agree that I think like I'm a member of a cult--the cult of the Mystical Body of Christ.

BTW, you don't sound like a neurotic because you favor the 1962 Missal, but because you think the Novus Ordo is empty of grace.
Ben Martin
Dr. Bobus, do you live in a vacuum and/or the Novus Ordo opium den of illusion and happy thoughts.
You think like a cult member---just because you want it, it somehow automatically becomes true and reality. Novus Ordo mess does not matter what language---Latin, Italian, German, Korean, all the same trashy results---it is not the language that is the problem it is the theology. Pretty basic.
I can …More
Dr. Bobus, do you live in a vacuum and/or the Novus Ordo opium den of illusion and happy thoughts.

You think like a cult member---just because you want it, it somehow automatically becomes true and reality. Novus Ordo mess does not matter what language---Latin, Italian, German, Korean, all the same trashy results---it is not the language that is the problem it is the theology. Pretty basic.

I can find Catholic roots in other Protestant worships services---does not mean it is holy and pleasing to God. The Novus Ordo did the same thing to the Mass as the Protestant Reformers—as I said the new mess has more in common with them than Catholicism.
If the new mess had some much grace as you speak about---surely you would see it the world and fruit of the faithful that attend and state of the Church---you only see the opposite. You speak as if you can do any alteration to the Mass that modern man dream up and God is suppose to give grace to the ABUSE--you have bad idea of God and your loyatly and devotion to Him---to allow the enemy to do this and then defend them of their abuse.
Pretty wick it
Dr Bobus
Ben Martin,
Don't be a moron. Just because there are serious deficiencies in the Novus Ordo doesn't make it "void and empty of grace".
As I said earlier, comments like that only do harm to the cause.
Besides, the real damage was done by vernacular, versus populum celebration. If the Novus Ordo were said in Latin ad orientem, there wouldn't have been 10% of the problems.More
Ben Martin,

Don't be a moron. Just because there are serious deficiencies in the Novus Ordo doesn't make it "void and empty of grace".

As I said earlier, comments like that only do harm to the cause.

Besides, the real damage was done by vernacular, versus populum celebration. If the Novus Ordo were said in Latin ad orientem, there wouldn't have been 10% of the problems.
Dr Bobus
Looking into the matter of Communion from the Chalice, I have discovered that there is a discrepancy between the 2d consecration of the Novus Ordo and that of the 1962 Missal (the latter corresponding to Scripture.
1 Cor 11:25 (This is the only mention in Scripture of drinking
from the chalice as a memorial).

Hoc facite quotiescumque bibetis in meam commemorationem
1962 Missal (TLM):
Haec quotiescumque …More
Looking into the matter of Communion from the Chalice, I have discovered that there is a discrepancy between the 2d consecration of the Novus Ordo and that of the 1962 Missal (the latter corresponding to Scripture.

1 Cor 11:25 (This is the only mention in Scripture of drinking
from the chalice as a memorial).


Hoc facite quotiescumque bibetis in meam commemorationem

1962 Missal (TLM):

Haec quotiescumque feceritis in mei memoriam facietis.

1970 Missal (Novus Ordo):

Hoc Facite in meam commemorationem.

NB: In the Novus Ordo the disappearance of the word quotiescumque (as often as, also found in the Greek NT as ὁσάκις), which makes it seem as if Christ wants everyone to drink from the chalice every time.
Ben Martin
I guess being faithful to the true Mass and traditional teachings, opposite to protestant forms of worship is "neurotic" to some people who can find unification and one body in two polar position and theological views that oppose each other. The old condemns the new.
The fruits of VII are rotten. Today’s average “Catholic” acts and believe more like a Protestant than the Protestants---How did this …More
I guess being faithful to the true Mass and traditional teachings, opposite to protestant forms of worship is "neurotic" to some people who can find unification and one body in two polar position and theological views that oppose each other. The old condemns the new.

The fruits of VII are rotten. Today’s average “Catholic” acts and believe more like a Protestant than the Protestants---How did this come about –but by changing the way people worship (New Mess) changes the way they believe. Average Catholic use birth control more than Protestants and doesn’t believe in real presences, believes Protestant religions are means of salvation, the list is endless. They have more similarity to the Protestants than the Traditional Catholic Faith.

It only those that do not know their Faith that think otherwise.

For the Novus Ordo are one body with heretical hierarchy, the openly publicly proclaimed gay priest, the clown and polka Me(a)ss’, the faithful publically teach openly against the faith, etc----all one ruptured and rotten body. It is a broke branch, like the protestant sects
Dr Bobus
I am convinced of the superiority of the 1962 Missal over the Novus Ordo--and more generally, celebration that is Latin ad orientem rather than vernacular versus populum.
On the other hand, making infantile comments like "the Novus Ordo is really void and empty of grace" does little except harm the cause of Latin liturgy, making it seem to be the province of uninformed neurotics.More
I am convinced of the superiority of the 1962 Missal over the Novus Ordo--and more generally, celebration that is Latin ad orientem rather than vernacular versus populum.

On the other hand, making infantile comments like "the Novus Ordo is really void and empty of grace" does little except harm the cause of Latin liturgy, making it seem to be the province of uninformed neurotics.
Ben Martin
MORE Protestant symbolology that it is somehow necessary to have to drink Blood of Christ.
Not necessary for both are found in with one form.
It was ushered in after VII to make the faithful think they are getting the full meal deal---but in reality the Novus Ordo M(e)ass is really void and empty of grace. So they have the make people think they are participating at a higher level because the Mess …More
MORE Protestant symbolology that it is somehow necessary to have to drink Blood of Christ.

Not necessary for both are found in with one form.

It was ushered in after VII to make the faithful think they are getting the full meal deal---but in reality the Novus Ordo M(e)ass is really void and empty of grace. So they have the make people think they are participating at a higher level because the Mess is so gutted.
Holy Cannoli
than the man who created Christianity, well, good luck to them.
The “man who created Christiainty”?
First off, it's the GODMAN who sacrificed Himself on the cross for all men including imbeciles like Eugene McKinnon.
If anyone has a better formula
Here's a formula for you, sir.
Take a bacteriology course and learn something about microbes instead of running off your ignorant mouth and making a …More
than the man who created Christianity, well, good luck to them.

The “man who created Christiainty”?

First off, it's the GODMAN who sacrificed Himself on the cross for all men including imbeciles like Eugene McKinnon.

If anyone has a better formula

Here's a formula for you, sir.

Take a bacteriology course and learn something about microbes instead of running off your ignorant mouth and making a fool of yourself and embarrassing the Church.

The alcohol level in wine is not high enough to be germicidal. However, if you drink enough wine (evidently like Fr. McKinnon) you won't care and will make uninformed comments like the “possibility of transference of disease is almost negligible.”

😊
Dr Bobus
It's not a good idea for many people to drink from the same chalice?
Well, Duh!
Fr MacKinnon thinks that the alcohol is sufficient to make the transfer of disease almost negligible. If that's so, then why during flu season do many dioceses stop the practice?
Beam me up, Scotty. There's no intelligent life down here.More
It's not a good idea for many people to drink from the same chalice?

Well, Duh!

Fr MacKinnon thinks that the alcohol is sufficient to make the transfer of disease almost negligible. If that's so, then why during flu season do many dioceses stop the practice?

Beam me up, Scotty. There's no intelligent life down here.