07:42
Irapuato
4910.1K
Fr. Brian Carpenter on "Same-Sex Marriage" www.youtube.com/channel/UCEj7HRojqXhuFi… Jun 25, 2011 Fr. Brian Carpenter offers a Catholic perspective on New York's recent attempt to revise the definition …More
Fr. Brian Carpenter on "Same-Sex Marriage"

www.youtube.com/channel/UCEj7HRojqXhuFi… Jun 25, 2011 Fr. Brian Carpenter offers a Catholic perspective on New York's recent attempt to revise the definition of Marriage.
ACLumsden
Hi Irenaeus 🤗 Now look at those sins you listed in Ezekiel. What is the root cause of those sins? This is what I have laboured to get at. Look beyond the 'effect' into the ugly face of the 'casue'.
The 'cause' or root of it all is the desecration of the human being, the sacramental, par excellence, of God. This is why Sodom and Gomorrah were so abhorrant unto the people of YHWH, and therefore, …More
Hi Irenaeus 🤗 Now look at those sins you listed in Ezekiel. What is the root cause of those sins? This is what I have laboured to get at. Look beyond the 'effect' into the ugly face of the 'casue'.

The 'cause' or root of it all is the desecration of the human being, the sacramental, par excellence, of God. This is why Sodom and Gomorrah were so abhorrant unto the people of YHWH, and therefore, unto YHWH.

Yes, the effect of this sin manifested itself in a myriad of different actions (homosexual acts included). I am not denying this, but, I am trying to get you chaps to, as I said above, look beyond the 'effect' into the ugly face of the 'cause'. Only then can one address the problem, by facing the root of it headon!

The New Testament law of love follows on from this: You must love the Lord your God with all your mind, heart and strength and your neighbour as yourself. (Lk10:27; Mk 12:30). This is the Law of Love which was broken. Herein is located the whole buisness about 'friendship'. Love of God completely made one "a friend of God", and therefore, fellow custodian of creation. To desecrate creation, was serious enough of an offence, but to desecrate the 'summit of creation' (human beings) was to break the Law of Friendship with God. This was an unforgivable act; the evil of which is located in two roots:

1. Ingratitude to YHWH their God who brought them out of the Land of Egypt.; who saved them and set them apart for His honour and Glory.
2. The desecration of the consequent dignity of the human being as the 'summit' of YHWH's creation a reflection of His beauty and therefore Glory.

😇 🤗
irenaeus
As for the Sin of Sodom... Chapter 16 of Ezekiel explains in great detail.
Three main sins appear -
1) Lack of charity.
2) Arrogance.
3) Abominable acts.
Ez16:49-50
"Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, surfeit of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. They were haughty, and did abominable things before me; therefore I removed …More
As for the Sin of Sodom... Chapter 16 of Ezekiel explains in great detail.

Three main sins appear -
1) Lack of charity.
2) Arrogance.
3) Abominable acts.

Ez16:49-50
"Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, surfeit of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. They were haughty, and did abominable things before me; therefore I removed them, when I saw it. "
Irapuato
✍️ l-i-t·e-r·a-t-e 😇
ACLumsden
Hi Irenaeus 🤗 ! Indeed YHWH worked wonders in the Old Testament. His is the world and all therein, therefore, He can do as he sees fit. However, remember that ancient Jews were not litterate, nor did they have any knowledge about anything in the natural world other than the basic things for survival, e.g. cooking, clothing, hunting, gathering, etc. These were people just out of the bronze age.
More
Hi Irenaeus 🤗 ! Indeed YHWH worked wonders in the Old Testament. His is the world and all therein, therefore, He can do as he sees fit. However, remember that ancient Jews were not litterate, nor did they have any knowledge about anything in the natural world other than the basic things for survival, e.g. cooking, clothing, hunting, gathering, etc. These were people just out of the bronze age.

The same way the Eskimos looked at the Northern Lights and thought they were a divinity, the ancient Jews looked upon natural phenomena. Could you imagine the shock and horror of the people when the hydrocarbons (unknown to the people) under Sodom and Gomorrah ignited? This MUST have been a workk of God. However, we know today, from the discipline of Geology, that this was to be expected in that area of the Dead Sea.

The Red Sea at the area the Israelites crosses, is a shallow area susceptible to extreem low tides. This shallow area is only between four to five feet at the deepest, but quite muddy on the sea bed. At one of its exteem low tides, it's only a few inches! This happens within a minute or so! Hence the speed at which it all happened and the aforementioned jewish astonishment at this natural phenomenon.

NOW, this is not to say that these theological stories are therefore diminsihed in value. Whilst Israel was in the desert, they were led by cloud in the daytime, pillar of fire in the night. There has been no evidence that there is any natural phenomena to explain this. Therefore, we are to accept that it is highly likely that these were real feats of God's power to guide and save His people. Just look at the Creation Stories. If we took them literally, the earth would only be 5000yrs old!!

Just keep in mind dear bother, that the texts you and I read today, in the Canon of Scripture are ancient texts. These were written by a people in a place and at a particular time so remote from ours and our thinking and society, that one just cannot take them at face value. One MUST excavate the text with the tools of anthropology, philosophy, antique sociology, literature, theology and of course prayer.
irenaeus
ACL said -
[---
'God did not "rain down fire and brimstone" no more than he parted the Red Sea - all natural phenomena.'
---]
I am not quite sure what to make of that. Did God work any miracles in Genesis or Exodus in your opinion?More
ACL said -
[---
'God did not "rain down fire and brimstone" no more than he parted the Red Sea - all natural phenomena.'
---]

I am not quite sure what to make of that. Did God work any miracles in Genesis or Exodus in your opinion?
ACLumsden
😲
ACLumsden
Dear Cannoli, do go to the library and take out a real book, with real paper and published by real scholars. Internet links are not proof of any such claims like yours. That is just lazy 'armchair' learning. When dealing with very deep and intellectual matters, internet references are quite laughable when quoted.
If you went to a library and really did the requiste research, into the works of the …More
Dear Cannoli, do go to the library and take out a real book, with real paper and published by real scholars. Internet links are not proof of any such claims like yours. That is just lazy 'armchair' learning. When dealing with very deep and intellectual matters, internet references are quite laughable when quoted.

If you went to a library and really did the requiste research, into the works of the Catholic scholars Aidan Nichols, Henry Wansborough and even the Holy Father's publications on Scriptural analysis, then we can talk of 'proof' (in the correct sense).

I stand by my claim which you have refuted upon the above, laughable sources and references. I offered Aidan Nicholas in his work Biblical Relationship and Love in the Old Testament. Obviously you have not read this, nor made an effort to. It rather seems that if it is not on internet, you don't see it. Pity really.

😇 🤗
Holy Cannoli
You continue to be quite simplistic, rather like Gregory.
Simplistic or not, it was you and not me who incorrectly claimed that:
Biblical scholarship maintains that it [ the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah] was the sin against the law of friendship.
Biblical scholarship maintains no such thing and I provided the proof in my link. Therefore, your assertion is false. It's a pity that you are not man enough …More
You continue to be quite simplistic, rather like Gregory.

Simplistic or not, it was you and not me who incorrectly claimed that:

Biblical scholarship maintains that it [ the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah] was the sin against the law of friendship.

Biblical scholarship maintains no such thing and I provided the proof in my link. Therefore, your assertion is false. It's a pity that you are not man enough to admit your error and move on.

The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

www.catholic.com/library/Homosexuality.asp

🧐
ACLumsden
Greetings chaps! 🤗
@Gregory...oh dear... 🤐 Still a vir simplex I see....not to worry dear man, that is your lot. 😇
@Cannoli - What do you know of the semetic concept of friendship of the Jewish people circa 1500 BC? Yet again, one cannot just apply modern concepts to ancient ideas of the same thing..... cf Aidan Nichols on Biblical relationship and Love in the Old Testament. You continue to …More
Greetings chaps! 🤗

@Gregory...oh dear... 🤐 Still a vir simplex I see....not to worry dear man, that is your lot. 😇

@Cannoli - What do you know of the semetic concept of friendship of the Jewish people circa 1500 BC? Yet again, one cannot just apply modern concepts to ancient ideas of the same thing..... cf Aidan Nichols on Biblical relationship and Love in the Old Testament. You continue to be quite simplistic, rather like Gregory.

The sin if Sodom and Gomorrah was that of the desecration of the dignity of the human being by means of homosexual intent. This was my conclusion to my last two posts.

@Gregory, God did not "rain down fire and brimstone" no more than he parted the Red Sea - all natural phenomena. However, this does not diminish the gravity of the theological import of the respective events as recorded by the eyes of faith so many millenia ago.

😇 🤗
Holy Cannoli
Your comment:
Biblical scholarship maintains that it [ the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah] was the sin against the law of friendship.
Is patently false.
--------------------------------
Do not remain on the surface of the text,
You would do well to do likewise and to use legitimate Catholic and not homosexual advocacy sites for your research.
www.catholic.com/library/Homosexuality.aspMore
Your comment:

Biblical scholarship maintains that it [ the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah] was the sin against the law of friendship.

Is patently false.
--------------------------------
Do not remain on the surface of the text,

You would do well to do likewise and to use legitimate Catholic and not homosexual advocacy sites for your research.

www.catholic.com/library/Homosexuality.asp
ACLumsden
Cannoli, greetings! 🤗 Do re-read my post in the light of the following.
In life all academic disciplines are interconnected - all the natural sciences, and these flow from the logical sciences of philosophy, with her origins in the trivium of classical education (philosophy, mathematics and music). In philosophy, the law physics law "for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction", is …More
Cannoli, greetings! 🤗 Do re-read my post in the light of the following.

In life all academic disciplines are interconnected - all the natural sciences, and these flow from the logical sciences of philosophy, with her origins in the trivium of classical education (philosophy, mathematics and music). In philosophy, the law physics law "for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction", is the same, but stated differently: for every effect there is a cause. This cause can be physical or psychic (interior or of the world of thought). For example, actions have their root cause in emotion and/or mental decision making processes. Here we also see phsychology using the ancient law. In philosophy however, this law is called the 'law of causation/causality'.

Having stated the law of causality, in theology we use this to investigate matters of the Divine. Take sin for example, to simple-mindedly state that an action is evil, does not address the deepest stratus of the issue. This is like only addressing the 'symptoms of a problem' rather than the root CAUSE; or killing the weed, but leaving the roots in tact - in time the weed will spring to life again, because the roots were not destroyed.

Now turning to the buisness of Sodom and Gomorrah, it is also not useful to just state the homosexuality was the sin. Yes it was, however, the ROOT cause of that sin needs to be investigated to highlight WHY it is a sin. With the help of a couple ex-Professors of mine (in Biblical Religion), I offered in my post below a deeper investigation of the problem - that deeper theological stratus of the issue.

That homosexual acts are intrinsically evil is de rigeur. However, the greater sin, which is the CAUSE of the gravity of the sin of homosexual acts, that which underlies this ACT is even more serious, viz. the desecration of the dignity of the human being as a 'sacramental of the living God' here on earth. This is why homosexual acts are so gravely evil and abhorrent unto both God and creation.

Therefore, homosexual acts are not evil and abhorrent unto God and creation, only because of the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, but rather, because of the deeper theological meaning of the text, viz. do not desecrate the human being who is a sacramental of the living God, for this is abhorrent unto God and unto creation. In the New Testament, we see this taken to a higher level, with the coming of the Holy Spirit, we are not only a sacramental but now a temple of God here on earth - which makes the act of homosexuality even more gravely sinful. This is ROOT cause of the serious sinfulness of the sin of homosexual acts.

Do not remain on the surface of the text, always try to penetrate the text, remembering that twentieth century people do not think like antique semetic folk (the oral traditions and all that).
Holy Cannoli
ACL writes:
Biblical scholarship maintains that it [ the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah] was the sin against the law of friendship. That the men of Sodom and Gomorrah meant to abuse the two male visitors by willfully offending their dignity as 'possible emissaries of Yahweh' (hence being called 'angels') and therefore offending gravely Yahweh Himself, was the root sin.
I'm afraid that your explanation …More
ACL writes:

Biblical scholarship maintains that it [ the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah] was the sin against the law of friendship. That the men of Sodom and Gomorrah meant to abuse the two male visitors by willfully offending their dignity as 'possible emissaries of Yahweh' (hence being called 'angels') and therefore offending gravely Yahweh Himself, was the root sin.

I'm afraid that your explanation has no basis in either biblical scholarship or in the consistent teaching of the Catholic Church or even from Jewish scholars . However, it's source is known.

Your explanation is frequently proffered by militant homosexual activists who have chosen (for their own “ends”) to deny what the Church actually does teach regarding “the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah.” Are you getting your information from Catholic sources or from elsewhere, ACL?

"Throughout history, Jewish and Christian scholars have recognized that one of the chief sins involved in God’s destruction of Sodom was its people’s homosexual behavior. But today, certain homosexual activists promote the idea that the sin of Sodom was merely a lack of hospitality. Although inhospitality is a sin, it is clearly the homosexual behavior of the Sodomites that is singled out for special criticism in the account of their city’s destruction. We must look to Scripture’s own interpretation of the sin of Sodom.

"Jude 7 records that Sodom and Gomorrah "acted immorally and indulged in unnatural lust." Ezekiel says that Sodom committed "abominable things" (Ezek. 16:50), which could refer to homosexual and heterosexual acts of sin. Lot even offered his two virgin daughters in place of his guests, but the men of Sodom rejected the offer, preferring homosexual sex over heterosexual sex (Gen. 19:8–9). Ezekiel does allude to a lack of hospitality in saying that Sodom "did not aid the poor and needy" (Ezek. 16:49). So homosexual acts and a lack of hospitality both contributed to the destruction of Sodom, with the former being the far greater sin, the "abominable thing" that set off God’s wrath.

"But the Sodom incident is not the only time the Old Testament deals with homosexuality. An explicit condemnation is found in the book of Leviticus: "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination. . . . If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death, their blood is upon them" (Lev. 18:22, 20:13)."

www.catholic.com/library/Homosexuality.asp

✍️
TES
@ Fr. Brian: Your video has been a starting point for a lively and interesting conversation here! I can hardly wait for your next video! 👏 👍 🤗
TES
Dear Ira! Yes, Gregory is a gentleman, but most and for all he is a true Christian, who always tries to find good in others! 👍 😇 🤗
@Gregory: Your comment gives you credit, and I really mean it! We should always try to love our neighbor and see what is best in him, instead of criticising, and thinking, we are better Christians than our neighbor. 🙏
Irapuato
😇 Good morning, ACL!
ACLumsden
Ira darling...you idle lass!! 😀 😀 😁 😁 😘
Irapuato
🤗 TES, Isn't Gregory a GEM 👍 ??? There are so few gentlemen left in the world today...
Irapuato
✍️ r-e-v-e-l-a-t-i-o-n-s 😀 😉
One more comment from Irapuato
Irapuato
✍️ r-e-v-e-l-a-t-i-o-n-s 😀 😉
ACLumsden
Sorry Ira dear, I don't subscribe or adhere to unapproved private revalations - regardless of the content. However, what I do understand is the use of the God-given gift of the intellect and good prayerful scholarship. 😇 🤗