Ultraviolet
In an emergency, Catholics can also fulfill their Sunday obligation at an Orthodox church. The Orthodox are still in schismatics, though. ;-)
Ave Crux
You're absolutely right. So -- with this provision in Canon Law -- whether or not they are schismatic becomes moot (and is still met with conflicting opinions in Rome) -- because they can offer Mass at their Chapels for Traditional Catholics escaping from Modernism, hear Confessions and officiate at Marriages.

Which is the position I have been trying to represent...although, like some in Rome, …More
You're absolutely right. So -- with this provision in Canon Law -- whether or not they are schismatic becomes moot (and is still met with conflicting opinions in Rome) -- because they can offer Mass at their Chapels for Traditional Catholics escaping from Modernism, hear Confessions and officiate at Marriages.

Which is the position I have been trying to represent...although, like some in Rome, I personally don't believe they are schismatic. But that's of no account in the overall scheme of things.

So I agree with you (whether one thinks they are in schism or not) and believe, for that reason, that it no longer matters, since we are permitted to attend even Orthodox liturgies if necessary.

In fact, I have a Coptic Church right down the road from me, and if the world gets so crazy that we are confined to our own cities (horrors!) I have often thought as I drive by it, that I may have to go there one day for the Sacraments. 🥺

My heart is with all the Catholics who can't go to FSSP, ICKSP or Indult Masses. I am immeasurably blessed to have access to all three of those options, but thousands of Catholics do not. And, in fact, it's possible some of those options may disappear with the latest Motu Proprio, especially as it forbids any new Chapels from being established.

So in a time of war (and I think many people agree we are in the darkest, most sinful and apostate time of the human history) I just think we should have pity on fellow Catholics who have nowhere else to go and not give them a hard time. That's all I have been trying to say...... 😇
Sp . .
Vespers on a Saturday eve in an Orthodox church is magnificent! Sunday liturgy is also a blessing to attend. While it Does fulfill the Sunday obligation, Roman Catholics are not in communion with the Orthodox just yet. ( except for emergencies - like the last rite ) When an Orthodox receives Holy communion, they do so by crossing their arms over their chest. If an Orthodox were to do that in a …More
Vespers on a Saturday eve in an Orthodox church is magnificent! Sunday liturgy is also a blessing to attend. While it Does fulfill the Sunday obligation, Roman Catholics are not in communion with the Orthodox just yet. ( except for emergencies - like the last rite ) When an Orthodox receives Holy communion, they do so by crossing their arms over their chest. If an Orthodox were to do that in a Roman Catholic Church - The priest would withhold communion and give a blessing.
That being said, The orthodox liturgy is usually two hours long, and Standing, only sitting for a few moments, The Ethiopian orthodox liturgy ( and Coptic ) are usually much longer. Don't forget about the free feast for everyone after mass!!!!!!

It's a real community event.

The Coptic and Ethiopian's are "Ultra orthodox" all the men sit on the left, all the women sit on the right. The Holy icons are venerated with a kiss and a sign of the cross, However, with covid, that's kept to a distance.

Don't forget there are Russian, Ukrainian, Romanian, Bulgarian, Churches too, maybe pass on the Greeks, They're to cozy with Bergogio.

The Choirs are so magnificent , A cappella !

I do prefer to attend the Ethiopian Orthodox even though communion is guarded. I may enter a sinner, but Boy o Boy, do I come out clean! can you say that in a New Roman liturgy? I've seen several baptisms performed there, The "Abba" (priest) prays fervently over that water for 20 minutes before the Baptismal Rite starts. Pretty good eh? The kids get dunked three times - that's a big eye-opener.

They use boat loads of incense, and take it out to all in attendance.

Their liturgy hasn't changed much since day one - awesome!
Ultraviolet
Actually, it doesn't become "moot"and "moot" isn't used that way @Ave Crux Once again, you're trying to legitimize a group who are not at all in full communion with Rome and The Catholic Church.

Can't have it both ways, dear heart. If the SSPX wants to disobey the Pope and continues to defy him in on-going practice, then at least they should be honest about it. Honest, eh? ;-) Don't preten…More
Actually, it doesn't become "moot"and "moot" isn't used that way @Ave Crux Once again, you're trying to legitimize a group who are not at all in full communion with Rome and The Catholic Church.

Can't have it both ways, dear heart. If the SSPX wants to disobey the Pope and continues to defy him in on-going practice, then at least they should be honest about it. Honest, eh? ;-) Don't pretend otherwise.

Catholics should go to Catholic churches on Sunday. Better a modernist Catholic church and a Novus Ordo service than a schismatic "whatever", no matter how pretty and traditional it is inside.
Ave Crux
Actually, I will state (3) points here (not intended to be exhaustive or comprehensive) for readers to make their own decision:

1) WHAT IS THE PROBLEM?


SSPX has never ceased with filial solicitude to repeatedly attempt reconciliation with Rome and with the Pope.

Decades long discussions, theological inquiries on why the SSPX cannot formally agree in conscience to accepting errors and …More
Actually, I will state (3) points here (not intended to be exhaustive or comprehensive) for readers to make their own decision:

1) WHAT IS THE PROBLEM?


SSPX has never ceased with filial solicitude to repeatedly attempt reconciliation with Rome and with the Pope.

Decades long discussions, theological inquiries on why the SSPX cannot formally agree in conscience to accepting errors and doctrinally problematic Documents of the Council -- a Council specifically declared to be only a pastoral Council and yet is being used as a doctrinal bludgeon and blackmail against the SSPX (Religious Liberty is just one example)

Essentially, unless SSPX is forced to agree under duress to modernist developments of doctrine, which change their intent and doctrinal meaning, Rome will punish them by withholding canonical status.

And....SSPX's fear about such errors have proven to be absolutely correct. Those documents contained ticking time bombs which have been used since the Council to usher in a whole new age of Religious Syncretism and other abominations.

SSPX has been proven to be absolutely RIGHT.


This is not disobedience. It is spiritual blackmail of the most evil kind, forcing Priests to violate their consciences before God to obtain canonical status.

That's a bargain with the devil.


This is incredibly evil in the sight of God.

And yet who would expect honorable Priests, who value the integrity of their consciences above all else to violate their own honor and spiritual rectitude under threats of not being granted a canonical status in the Church -- a Church they have vowed to defend -- and must now betray in order to fulfill their God-given priestly vocation in the Church....?

God certainly doesn't expect them to violate their consciences. And they will surely be vindicated.

2) A SCHISMATIC PRIEST IS IN MORTAL SIN


Any Priest who is truly schismatic is in mortal sin.

A Priest in mortal sin cannot confect or bestow any Sacraments at all without committing sacrilege. This includes the Sacraments of Confession and Matrimony.

No Pope can change the fact that a Priest offering Masses while being truly schismatic is in mortal sin.

That fact being a priori, if Pope Francis believed these Priests were schismatic -- and therefore in mortal sin and guilty of the sacrilege of offering Mass in the state of grave sin -- Pope Francis would not have made himself accessory to countless more acts of sacrilege by granting nearly 1,000 SSPX Priests throughout the entire world on all continents the faculties to hear Confessions and officiate at Marriages.

If that were Pope Francis's belief and understanding, he would now be implicated in thousands upon thousands of sacrileges, and will have to answer to God for that.

This is proof positive that Pope Francis does not believe them to be schismatic for continuing the work for which they were ordained.

3) WHAT DOES THE CHURCH SAY?


I will now share links showing the following:

A) A 2015 Article: "Argentina formally recognizes SSPX as part of the Catholic Church - at the request of the Archbishop of Buenos Aires"

This article explains that the Archbishop of Buenos Aires (Successor to Pope Francis) granted SSPX status as an ASSOCIATION OF DIOCESAN RIGHT

This happened while Pope Francis was Pope, and certainly with his permission, for no Bishop in the Catholic Church (much less one from Argentina who knows Pope Francis extremely well) would dare to grant a "schismatic" group canonical status contrary to the wishes of the Pope if they were indeed schismatic...nor is that even juridically possible.

Episcopal See's Declaration from the article:
"That to the aforesaid fraternity [SSPX] be accredited its character as a public juridical person within the ROMAN CATHOLIC APOSTOLIC CHURCH, according to the norms of the Code of Canon Law."

B) A 2017 article showing the complete disagreement which exists in Rome as to the SSPX's status, including SSPX being asked by Cardinal Muller to help in the fight against Moderism, and the many letters of support SSPX receives from establishment Bishops and Priests.

In this article is the following quote:

"The issues the Society has with certain portions of the Second Vatican Council “are open questions” in discussions of reconciling the SSPX, said Fellay. This could mean, as Italian Archbishop Guido Pozzo has said, that the SSPX may come back to full Communion despite not accepting all of Vatican II – because certain documents from the Council are not doctrinal in nature." [And yet, this has been blocked by Modernist thugs, not disobedience by SSPX or their lack of adhesion to Holy Mother Church, which they love with a singular, burning charity.]

CONCLUSION: No one in the Hierarchy even agrees on the status of SSPX, so no lay person is qualified to make that declaration. I have my personal beliefs, and I thank God SSPX exists to serve the many Traditional Catholics deprived of the Immemorial Mass. Amen!

There is so much more to be said, but all that typing has finished me off.

Viva Christo Rey!
😇
Ultraviolet
Oh boy, here we go The Heavy Bold Blocks are already showing up. If ever there was a GTV Butt-Hurt Alert it's this. INB4 "I didn't read your reply". That comes next. :P

What's the problem? People who are not in full communion with The Church shouldn't pretend they that are. Their fans shouldn't try to mislead others into believing the SSPX is nor should they misrepresent the SSPX as loyal …More
Oh boy, here we go The Heavy Bold Blocks are already showing up. If ever there was a GTV Butt-Hurt Alert it's this. INB4 "I didn't read your reply". That comes next. :P

What's the problem? People who are not in full communion with The Church shouldn't pretend they that are. Their fans shouldn't try to mislead others into believing the SSPX is nor should they misrepresent the SSPX as loyal Catholics who are lawfully submissive to The Supreme Pontiff. --because the SSPX is none of those things.

"the SSPX cannot formally agree in conscience to accepting errors and doctrinally problematic Documents of the Council"

Their founder also could not formally agree in conscience to accepting Canon Law and obeying it. That's where "the schism" happened as John Paul II described it (verbatim).

As usual, you make much of the SSPX's excuses and self-serving justifications for their disobedience yet you're unable to explain how the FSSP is able to remain every bit as dedicated to Catholic traditionalism and pre-Vatican Council II theology and still remain in full communion with the Catholic Church. Obviously it can be done because the FSSP has been doing it for over 35 years now. The SSPX just doesn't want to. That's schismatics behaving like schismatics.

That's fine for them, the Orthodox do the same. But the Orthodox don't pretend they're still Catholics, unlike the SSPX.

"This article explains that..".

Because linking an URL isn't anywhere as fun as text-bombing the comments section with Loads O' Bold, and even the extra-inflamed red text.

"This happened while Pope Francis was Pope, and certainly with his permission,"

Silence does not imply consent. If a book club keep sending you "evaluation copies" when you didn't ask for them, you're not obligated to pay for them.

Since the last official ruling on the Canonical Status of the SSPX was made by Benedict XVI -as pope- i.e. they have none whatsoever, the verdict of a Pope surpasses that of a Bishop. Francis may have contradicted Benedict XVI on Summorum Pontificum, but he hasn't contradicted him on the Canonical Status of the SSPX.

wikipedia.org/…Canonical_situation_of_the_Society_of_Saint_Pius_X

"CONCLUSION: No one in the Hierarchy even agrees on the status of SSPX, so no lay person is qualified to make that declaration."

Wrong on both points.
1.) The "hierarchy" ends at the Pope.
The previous pope was explicit. The SSPX has no Canonical Status. The current Pope has not modified The Church's official stance regarding the SSPX's Canonical Stauts .

2.) A lay-person is qualified to repeat the same declaration, as yet unchanged, when it's made by the Pope himself. He's the endpoint of the temporal hiearchy. He has the final word and he has spoken.

That's something people with a now-institutionalized culture of schism simply refuse to accept.
Ave Crux
@Ultraviolet I didn't write it for you....! I wrote it for the readers, as I say at the beginning. Let them decide....! "And let freedom ring....!

Viva Christo Rey...!
Ultraviolet
Yes you did write it for me. Because I am one of "the readers" here also. I simply took exception with what I read and corrected it. ;-)
Ave Crux
@Ultraviolet No, actually, you are presenting one side, and I am presenting the other. We already know our views differ.... So I want the other readers to make up their own minds. That's all! 😇

God bless!
Ave Crux
Further to my comment immediately above, someone just sent me this video. The video says it all and cries to heaven for vengeance.

And then we have self-appointed fastidious "canonists" who claim SSPX is "outside the Church" for resisting such abomination, such destruction of our Patrimony and robbery of the Treasures of the Saints...Saints who died to bring the Ancient Faith to the world and …
More
Further to my comment immediately above, someone just sent me this video. The video says it all and cries to heaven for vengeance.

And then we have self-appointed fastidious "canonists" who claim SSPX is "outside the Church" for resisting such abomination, such destruction of our Patrimony and robbery of the Treasures of the Saints...Saints who died to bring the Ancient Faith to the world and to give witness to it.. and blaming SSPX for setting up Chapels which preserve these treasures which were summarily discarded at Vatican II through the sheer malice and subterfuge of the Modernists against whom several Popes prior to the Council warned us
....it makes me positively ill.

The errors of Vatican II which gave rise to these fruits and man-centered religion, from which Archbishop Lefebvre and the SSPX dissent -- and justly so before Almighty God -- prove the "smoke of satan has entered the Sanctuary of the Church" (Pope Paul VI)

The video can be viewed here....Look for yourself.


I rest my case....Archbishop Lefebvre will be canonized...

THE ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION HAS ENTERED THE HOLY PLACE....
Ultraviolet
All those Big Butt-Hurt Bold Paragraphs. :D Always a sign an apologist is in Propaganda Mode misrepresenting the SSPX as a legitimate Catholic society.

"And then we have self-appointed fastidious "canonists" who claim SSPX is "outside the Church" for resisting such abomination"

...starting with Pope John Paul II who affirmed the Latae Sententiae excommunication against Abp. Lefebvre and his …More
All those Big Butt-Hurt Bold Paragraphs. :D Always a sign an apologist is in Propaganda Mode misrepresenting the SSPX as a legitimate Catholic society.

"And then we have self-appointed fastidious "canonists" who claim SSPX is "outside the Church" for resisting such abomination"

...starting with Pope John Paul II who affirmed the Latae Sententiae excommunication against Abp. Lefebvre and his stooges. Followed by Benedict XVI and Francis who also corroborated that the SSPX is "not in full communion with The Church".

Every Pope who's had to deal with these pretend-Catholics has said the same, in one form or another.

The SSPX has no Canonical status (Benedict XVI) and Francis hasn't changed that. We've had this argument before and you lost.

As for your photo.

1.) Fallacious Appeal to Emotion.
It's grotesque but most Novus Ordo Masses aren't like that at all. And you darn well know it. You're not being honest, Ave Crux. :D

2.) Fallacy of Incomplete Evidence
aka. Cherry picking.
"pointing to individual cases... while ignoring a significant portion of related and similar cases or data that may contradict that position.

3.) Two wrongs don't make a right.
an occasional act of Novus Ordo stupidity doesn't justify breaking Canon Law and disobeying the Pope. Protip: That goofy Mass in your photo happened long after Abp. Lefebvre's schism. So it doesn't justify his defiance, nor does it do so retroactively.

" such destruction of our Patrimony and robbery of the Treasures of the Saints.... (blah blah blah)

The Orthodox no doubt say much the same justifying their own schism. But they're still schismatics like you-know-who. At least they don't pretend to be Catholic anymore.

Instead, the SSPX wants it both ways.. They want to claim they are "true" Catholics while constantly disobeying the Pope and The Church's chain of command whenever they feel it's a "necessity".

That isn't how The Catholic Church works. You're either in or you're out.

"these treasures which were summarily discarded at Vatican II through the sheer malice and subterfuge of the Modernists against whom several Popes prior to the Council warned us....it makes me positively ill."

Do you get "ill" knowing Abp. Lefebvre was part of the Vatican Council II Central Preparatory Commission? He was, you know. Abp. Lefebvre played an important part in Vatican Council II.

He was part of those discarding these treasures and he was entirely happy to stay in Post Vatican Council II Church for the next twenty years.

The only "necessity" he had was he didn't get what he wanted.

"I rest my case....Archbishop Lefebvre will be canonized..."

Wishful thinking and an Argument From Repetition.

Leave the "seer" gimmick to those of us who know what we're doing. The same is true for using bold. :D
Ave Crux
No, actually....it's called anger......after watching that video last night I could not sleep the entire night. I felt like someone had hit me with a sledgehammer. In fact, I haven't slept since yesterday morning.

But apparently you're okay with your fellow Catholics -- otherwise deprived of a Holy and Reverent Traditional Mass -- having to live with that week-in-and-week-out because apparen…More
No, actually....it's called anger......after watching that video last night I could not sleep the entire night. I felt like someone had hit me with a sledgehammer. In fact, I haven't slept since yesterday morning.

But apparently you're okay with your fellow Catholics -- otherwise deprived of a Holy and Reverent Traditional Mass -- having to live with that week-in-and-week-out because apparently, according to you, it's called "Catholic". Really?

Are you comfortable with sacrilege, Ultraviolet? Or is that just for everyone else who doesn't have your opportunity to attend the Traditional Latin Mass?

That is...families with children in real Catholic formation whose faith in the Real Presence during their formative years is irreparably damaged by witnessing the constant abuse of Our Lord in a constant stream of Communion in the hand; persons longing for and aspiring to a deeper spiritual life and who are deeply wounded and even cry during such Masses.

For them it's okay? You are seriously mistaken. And I hope one day your see you are.

In case you missed it, I will post here only a few of my own experiences in the Novus Ordo organized sacrilege:

HERE:
And yet, when I am constrained regularly to go to daily Mass at the Novus Ordo parish because the TLM is too far away, I witness abuses every single time...

* a teenager playing with the Host after receiving Holy Communion...!

* a Consecrated Host swept up in a pile of garbage by the janitor...!

* and when I picked up that Host in a cloth with fear and trembling (I didn't dare leave Our Lord there) to bring it to the Pastor in the Rectory, he gruffly took it from me, grunted and folded the Host into a piece of paper on his desk. I stood there dumbfounded, not wanting to leave Our Lord on that Priest's desk!

* Priests interrupting Masses to make extemporaneous, even joking remarks

* streams of people going up to receive Communion in the hand and popping our dear Lord into their mouths like a potato chip as they walk along back to their pew

* children running up and down the aisles in the church and through the sanctuary playing chase
after Mass

* Everyone standing around before and after Mass as if in an auditorium talking, joking and laughing loudly in the aisles about their vacations, their children, their condominiums, you name it, without the least respect for Our Lord's Presence in the Tabernacle.

* an announcement that the Priests are finding discarded hosts after the Masses and advising that this should not be done.....!

The list is literally endless. Fortunately I found another parish this year where the Priests are reverent even if the parishioners aren't.

THIS ALL PROVES THAT ONLY SATAN COULD HAVE INSPIRED THE NEW MASS AS A MEANS OF DESTROYING THE CATHOLIC FAITH IN SOULS AND EVEN ABUSING OUR DEAR LORD IN THE MOST BLESSED SACRAMENT.
Ultraviolet
Nah, It's Big Blocks Of Bold Butt-Hurt and you resort to it every time your SSPX propaganda starts getting systematically fact-checked. This video has jack-diddly to do with it.

"In fact, I haven't slept since 11 AM yesterday morning."

Neither have I, but what else is new? :D Seriously, you should up your game with energy drinks. In fact, just to show some truly honest good-will, I'll even…More
Nah, It's Big Blocks Of Bold Butt-Hurt and you resort to it every time your SSPX propaganda starts getting systematically fact-checked. This video has jack-diddly to do with it.

"In fact, I haven't slept since 11 AM yesterday morning."

Neither have I, but what else is new? :D Seriously, you should up your game with energy drinks. In fact, just to show some truly honest good-will, I'll even share my latest discovery. This one of the best, most under-rated, and cost-effective energy drinks on the market today. 4C Energy Rush Drink Mix. The "rush" is every bit as potent as RedBull (it's stronger and lasts longer, in fact) and a whole lot cheaper. Flavor and sweetness are VERY intense too. It's like extra-concentrated Kool-Aid. You have to "cut" this stuff down. Be careful mixing it, too, it stains like crazy. But... it's totally sugar-free and low-cal for those of us who are concerned with maintaining a slender figure. <3

"But apparently you're okay with your fellow Catholics -- otherwise deprived of a Holy and Reverent Traditional Mass --

The SSPX wasn't the only source of the Traditional Latin Mass, no matter how much you pretend otherwise. They have never been. They aren't the only source now, either.

"having to live with that week-in-and-week-out because apparently, according to you, it's called "Catholic". Really?"

They don't have to live with "that" week-in-and-week-out. It was obviously a one-off crazy "theme" Mass. Again, you're not being honest, Ave Crux. :-) Even if it was a weekly event, the parishioners could easily go to another church. You're making this up as you go along to justify your schismatics quitting The Church to do their own thing outside of it.

"Are you comfortable with sacrilege, Ultraviolet?"

Are you comfortable with schism, Ave Crux? ;-)

Would you wager your Salvation against being able to show that wooden masks are a staple in Novus Ordo Masses the way you're implying? Yes or no?

"Or is that just for everyone else who doesn't have your opportunity to attend the Traditional Latin Mass?"

My opportunity comes with a long drive on Sundays. If other Catholics wish to be lazy or, God help us, actually enjoy such liturgical abuse (and those parishioners obviously do), then they deserve what they get.

The Big Bold Paragraph Block is a Strawman Argument presented as a rhetorical question. :P

" I will post here only a few of my own experiences"

Pic related.
Common tactic you resort to. :D Also... Fallacious Appeal to Emotion and Cherry Picking again. In case you missed it, most Novus Ordo Masses aren't like that, no matter what you claim to have seen.

You always come up with these "personal claims" whenever you've run out of facts.. You need new material, love. :)
Scapular
Nothing changed!
Ave Crux
Exactly....not for nearly 2,000 years....! And isn't that the whole point...? 😇