Viganò: Vatican II and Papacy Have Become Trojan Horses

There is “a schism within the papacy,” Archbishop Viganò writes in a letter to Father Thomas Weinandy (MarcoTosatti.com, August 11). He explains this with the fact that Francis is the leader of a …
Ultraviolet
This post/ this article isn't about Islam. @Be Ye Separate More of your topic-shifting. Catholics today are not responsible for any atrocity perpetrated by Catholics in the past. Likewise, neither are Muslims today responsible for Mohammed. We are all responsible for our OWN actions.

Unfortunately for you, Nostra Aetate is consistent with The Church's 20th century policies BEFORE Vatican II, …More
This post/ this article isn't about Islam. @Be Ye Separate More of your topic-shifting. Catholics today are not responsible for any atrocity perpetrated by Catholics in the past. Likewise, neither are Muslims today responsible for Mohammed. We are all responsible for our OWN actions.

Unfortunately for you, Nostra Aetate is consistent with The Church's 20th century policies BEFORE Vatican II, Notably under Pope Pius XI.

Also, one can "esteem" people for their individual qualities without esteeming their religious errors. Nostra Aetate's own language makes that clear. The way you fixate on this official Church proclamation, it's the only document Vatican II produced.

We both know why you're so hung up on it to the exclusion of all else don't we? ;-)
Eva
Michael Vorris: "Faithful Catholics do not question or repudiate the authority of the Second Vatican Council." (Aug. 7, 2020, Vortex)
V.R.S.
... and adore together with their Moslem neighbours one merciful God? (Lumen Gentium 16) I don't adore Allah together with followers of Muhammad and consider myself a faithful Catholic. Either I'm wrong or the so-called SVC is.
Ultraviolet
There is a difference between questioning, repudiating, and FOLLOWING. ;-)
Ultraviolet
"He specified on February 27, 2013"... @Gesù Same speech in which he said "I no longer bear the power of office for the governance of the Church" He resigned all temporal power as Pope. He resigned verbally, he resigned in writing, he underscored his resignation when questioned later. He doesn't dress like the Pope, he doesn't wear the Papal ring as Pope, he doesn't govern the Church as Pope …More
"He specified on February 27, 2013"... @Gesù Same speech in which he said "I no longer bear the power of office for the governance of the Church" He resigned all temporal power as Pope. He resigned verbally, he resigned in writing, he underscored his resignation when questioned later. He doesn't dress like the Pope, he doesn't wear the Papal ring as Pope, he doesn't govern the Church as Pope and all the bold and coloured text doesn't change that.

Benedict himself acknowledges Francis is Pope. Idiot.
V.R.S.
"He doesn't dress like the Pope..." oh yes, there in Rome all the clergy wear white cassocks. It seems that the new fashion trend has been set.
Ultraviolet
I was referring to the white Papal mozzetta. Only the Pope wears it.
V.R.S.
@Ultraviolet
"I was referring to the white Papal mozzetta. Only the Pope wears it."
---
Oh.Only Pope? Then I have some news for you. Bergoglio does not wear a papal mozzetta. Ratzinger wore till Feb 2013 the red one. Then we must have a sede vacante I guess.
Ultraviolet
You are referring to the liturgical mozzetta.

Francis -does- wear the lighter mozzetta that is part of the white Papal simar.

...and with good reason. It is a symbol of his jurisdictional authority.

More importantly,for the same reason, Benedict does not.
pic related.
V.R.S.
@Ultraviolet
Do not try to force your private language upon me. It's not a mozzetta. It's called a pellegrina. A part of cassock worn by some priests and religious. Francis do not wear a mozzetta at all. Then, when we're referring to traditional pope garments, he is a doubtful pope I suppose. 😬
Ultraviolet
What is wrong with you? Direct quote from the site I just linked "The simar is a Roman Catholic garment similar in design to a plain cassock, but with a shoulder cape."

I've dealt with people like you before. The last one was a Pole, too.... Rafal-something. Time for some official press releases...

--As for his apparel, the pope emeritus will wear a simple white cassock without the mozzetta (…More
What is wrong with you? Direct quote from the site I just linked "The simar is a Roman Catholic garment similar in design to a plain cassock, but with a shoulder cape."

I've dealt with people like you before. The last one was a Pole, too.... Rafal-something. Time for some official press releases...

--As for his apparel, the pope emeritus will wear a simple white cassock without the mozzetta (the short cape that covers his shoulders).--
www.ncregister.com/daily-news/pope-benedicts-…

--Benedict, the first pope to resign voluntarily in six centuries, will dress in a simple white cassock, forgoing the mozzetta, the elbow-length cape worn by some Catholic clergymen, the Vatican spokesman, the Rev. Federico Lombardi, told reporters at a news briefing.--
www.nytimes.com/…/benedict-xvi-to…

-Benedict XVI will be “Pontiff emeritus” or “Pope emeritus”, as Fr. Federico Lombardi, S.J., director of the Holy See Press Office, reported in a press conference on th final days of the current pontificate. He will keep the name of 'His Holiness, Benedict XVI' and will dress in a simple white cassock without the mozzetta (elbow-length cape)"--
church.mt/benedict-xvi-wi…

That isn't my "private language". That is a quote from the official Vatican spokesman and cited on the official website of the Archiocese of Malta.

Simply put, you are out of your depth. You tried this stupid word-game the last time and it didn't work. You should have learned your lesson the first time. This is why "Polish" jokes are always about someone being stubborn and stupid.

I do understand what you are trying to do. ;-)

You want confuse things just like you want to confuse who is truly Pope. I understand your little tricks perfectly.

We are BOTH referring to the white 'elbow-length shoulder cape' that Benedict no longer wears because he isn't Pope.

He doesn't wear it because he isn't Pope anymore. He isn't Pope anymore because he resigned.

There isn't anything "doubtful" about it at all. Just look at the picture I posted. I can post several more. But I've posted enough. Catholic websites, a direct quote from the Vatican's official spokesman, photos. All supporting what I say.

You, however, have posted nothing. You never do. You make claims with no facts, no proof. All you are is hot air, verbal flatulence to be exact.

It's time for you to start supporting YOUR claims.Let us begin with "the shoulder cape"

Post a photo of Benedict wearing the white cassock and white shoulder-cape in the presence of Pope Francis.

A photo of both men together, a photo like the one I posted, except with Benedict wearing the "shoulder cape".

The Pope wears it. Benedict does not because he is not Pope any more.You either post the photo or you are wrong.

Also. link the website where the photo appears. Someone like you WOULD try Photo-Shop once you get desperate.

No more arguments, no more haggling over terms, find the photo and post it with the URL of the site where you found it.

Any reply from you without the required photo and site URL is an admission that you're wrong.

MFW... people like you.
V.R.S.
@Ultraviolet
No you were referring to a mozzetta - as the Papal garment which Ratzinger does not wear thus showing, according to you he is not a Pope. Which is wrong because Bergoglio also does not wear one. Now you try to the "game rules" and start to talk about the "cape". OK, so be it.
You claim that the white pellegrina is a separate article from the white cassock though it seems to me undeta…More
@Ultraviolet
No you were referring to a mozzetta - as the Papal garment which Ratzinger does not wear thus showing, according to you he is not a Pope. Which is wrong because Bergoglio also does not wear one. Now you try to the "game rules" and start to talk about the "cape". OK, so be it.
You claim that the white pellegrina is a separate article from the white cassock though it seems to me undetachable, OK - no problem, let's suppose it. I'll return to my first argument: who wears in the Church a white-buttoned cassock? Is there any other dignity in the Church connected with one? A bishop? A cardinal? A common priest?
No, only the Pope. So, returning to your statement "He doesn't dress like the Pope":
1) you are wrong - he dresses like one, wearing the white-buttoned cassock, a part of the garment reserved for the Pope.
2) Note, that you have admitted that the Pope does not need to wear all parts of traditional garments (e.g. mozzetta).
3) If Bergoglio (as the presumable pope in the "notorious errors do not matter" theory) does not need to wear a mozzetta (one part of the papal garments) and he does not show us here (by not wearing it) that he is not a Pope , then following the same line of argumentation: Ratzinger (as the presumable pope in the benevacantist theory) also does not need to wear a pellegrina to be the Pope. Therefore, wearing the pellegrina seems to be irrelevant.

The valid remaining question is: why? why does Ratzinger still dress in the white-buttoned cassock and sow confusion (e.g. scenes with two men in white in public even giving their joint blessing) if he resigned and is no Pope at all?
Nb. the whole so-called "pope emeritus" thing is uncanonical, there is no such dignity in the Church and there is no super-ordination for popes. The papal election and entrance into the Petrine Office is not another ordination, in history popes were coronated, not consecrated - so the bishop who loses his diocese, e.g. because of his age, remains one, the pope who loses his office ceases to be one.
Ultraviolet
I see you didn't post a photo supporting your claim the way I asked. You can't, you won't, everything else from you after this is noise just hide that fact.

I'll play along, because you can't supply the evidence you need to prove your claim. I can, I did.

"No you were referring to a mozzetta - as the Papal garment which Ratzinger does not wear thus showing, according to you he is not a …More
I see you didn't post a photo supporting your claim the way I asked. You can't, you won't, everything else from you after this is noise just hide that fact.

I'll play along, because you can't supply the evidence you need to prove your claim. I can, I did.

"No you were referring to a mozzetta - as the Papal garment which Ratzinger does not wear thus showing, according to you he is not a Pope."

I just -happen- to be quoting the Vatican Spokesman referring to that same mozzetta. Fancy that.

"Which is wrong because Bergoglio also does not wear one."

Which is wrong and contradicted by the photo. My photo.

Once again, you're not posting any photos of your own because you're wrong. That isn't "game rules", that's basic lack of any visual support for the claim you are making.

I can post a photo supporting my claim because I am right. You can not post a photo supporting your claim because you are wrong. It -is- that simple.

The only "game" here is you trying to hide behind your bad Egnlish and the complex terminology surrounding the vestments themselves..

When the Vatican spokesman Fr. Lombardi said, "He will keep the name of 'His Holiness, Benedict XVI' and will dress in a simple white cassock without the mozzetta (elbow-length cape)"

...that is what you see in the photo.

Simple white cassock. No mozzetta. Pope Francis is wearing one. Benedict is not. The photo supports my claim. The Vatican spokesman's news interview supports my claim.

Your claim? Nothing, except for a round of failed logic.

"I'll return to my first argument: who wears in the Church a white-buttoned cassock?"

That isn't an argument. That's a question, possibly a rhetorical one, no less. ;-)

"Is there any other dignity in the Church connected with one? A bishop? A cardinal? A common priest? No, only the Pope."

I'm bolding this so it doesn't get "lost" in my reply. That isn't an argument either. It is a rhetorical question followed by an answer. It is a premise and it is...

Wrong.. Priests can and DO wear white cassocks.

"A priest's cassock is usually black although white is sometimes used in tropical climates. "

www.ewtn.com/…/wearing-the-cas…

Oh. And the Norbertines.

"On any typical weekend, the white cassock-clad priests of the Norbertine order from St. Michael’s Abbey in southern California preach in about 35 parishes"

www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/norbertines-lau…

There's a photo of 'em too.:D

Even seminarians wear white as well.

Here is a charming seminarian blog entry on the subject. Also includes a photo.

seminariansmusing.blogspot.com/2014/05/of-cassocks.html

I point out to you the photo caption: "Seminarians of the Archdiocese of Lipa wearing cassocks"

Check the colour. :D

And just so there isn't any possible doubt, at the bottom, the seminarian writer thanks his fellow seminarian blogger saying, "And a special tip of the hat and kind regards to fellow admin Nico, who recently obtained a new white cassock..."

Therefore, your "argument" fails. Entirely.

You also just contradicted yourself. "A part of" is not the whole. You're making a fallacy of composition.

If Benedict wears civilian clothes and only a white skull cap he is not "dressing like the Pope" just because he wears "part of" the Papal vestments.

A Norbertine or even a lowly seminarian isn't "dressing like the Pope" either just because he wears a white cassock.

The problem here is you don't know what you're talking about.

The Vatican itself has already established and explained Benedict's new title and the differences between his clothing in retirement and the official Papal uniform.

You simply refuse to accept that the same way you refuse to accept Benedict's own repeated declarations that he resigned.

"2) Note, that you have admitted that the Pope does not need to wear all parts of traditional garments (e.g. mozzetta)."

Quote me directly. Don't "summarize" what I've said.

"3) If Bergoglio (as the presumable pope in the "notorious errors do not matter" theory)"

First, stick to your argument without digressing into parenthetical irrelevancies.

"and he does not show us here (by not wearing it) that he is not a Pope"

Second, he -is- wearing the mozzetta and Benedict is not. Are you blind? The buttons on the garment are visible in the photo!

"Ratzinger (as the presumable pope in the benevacantist theory) also does not need to wear a pellegrina to be the Pope."

Again, parenthetical irrelevancies and your argument fails because your second premise if false.

"The valid remaining question is: why? why does Ratzinger still dress in the white-buttoned cassock and sow confusion"

The answer to your "valid remaining question" is simple. He isn't sowing any confusion at all. YOU are. You and all the other nay-sayers who choose to ignore the visible differences between their modes of dress.

Benedict himself has already explained this in an apparently vain effort to refute the confusion people like you insist on perpetuating.

Direct quote:

"I continue to wear the white cassock and kept the name Benedict for purely practical reasons. At the moment of my resignation there were no other clothes available."

www.ncregister.com/…/benedict-xvi-qu…

There is your answer, direct from the man himself. He also elaborates:

"In any case, I wear the white cassock in a visibly different way to how the Pope wears it."

...and that's supported by the photo, my photo, as well. No capey-cape flappin' busily about his shoulders! No indeed. The POPE has it. Benedict does not.

Also worth pointing out Benedict

a.) again stated he resigned referencing "the moment of my resignation"

b.) also drew a distinction between himself and the Pope. Very important, that.

As in, someone else is the Pope and he is not.

All of which is consistent to everything I've presented thus far.

"(e.g. scenes with two men in white in public even giving their joint blessing) if he resigned and is no Pope at all?"

Benedict hasn't been laicized. He is still entitled to give blessings..

"Nb. the whole so-called "pope emeritus" thing is uncanonical,"

Quote Canon Law prohibiting the existence of a Pope Emeritus. Cite title, chapter, section. In law there is a maxim "nulla poena sine lege" (i.e. "no punishment without a law")

In international law, it is called the Lotus principle after a then-famous nautical case:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotus_case

Quoting wiki verbatim people: "may act in any way they wish so long as they do not contravene an explicit prohibition."

So if you wish to claim this title is "unCanonical" you must quote Canon Law explicitly prohibiting it.

You won't because you can't. Just like you won't post a photo of Benedict wearing his mozzetta in the presence of Pope Francis wearing his own for the same reason.

Instead what you WILL do is continue to deflect the discussion away from the fact you are flat-out wrong on every point you have raised.

You are wrong on the term mozzetta.

You are wrong in claiming only the Pope wears a white cassock.

You are wrong on the supposed "doubtful" nature of his resignation.

You are wrong on Canon law.

You are wrong because you don't know what you are talking about and you are too stubborn to admit it.

"there is no such dignity in the Church and there is no super-ordination for popes."

The former exists regardless of your opinion, already shown to be an uneducated one, even counting only your latest mistakes regarding white cassocks and Canon law. You haven't shown anything in support of this latest claim

Don't even try.

Instead, please do what I asked.

Go find a photo of Benedict and Francis in the same scene both wearing the full Papal vestments, both wearing the same type of shoulder covering.

After that, You need to post a photo of Benedict where he's still wearing his Papal ring, a photo dated after his resignation. :D
Gesù è con noi
Pope Benedict made it clear that he could not renounce the Papacy. He specified on February 27, 2013, that his “yes” in accepting his election as pope was and is irrevocable: “The ‘always’ is also a ‘forever’ – there can no longer be a return to the private sphere. My decision to resign the active exercise of the ministry does not revoke this.” Pope Benedict also declared: “I have taken this …More
Pope Benedict made it clear that he could not renounce the Papacy. He specified on February 27, 2013, that his “yes” in accepting his election as pope was and is irrevocable: “The ‘always’ is also a ‘forever’ – there can no longer be a return to the private sphere. My decision to resign the active exercise of the ministry does not revoke this.” Pope Benedict also declared: “I have taken this step with full awareness of its gravity and even its novelty Therefore there was no apostolic succession. Bergoglio is an anti pope mainly because he was a heretic prior to his invalid election so he was disqualified to be a candidate for the papacy.
Gesù è con noi
It's like putting a thief as the head of a bank.
Gesù è con noi
The Bergoglians have for their pope a heretic who does not guard the deposit of faith but attacks it.
Ultraviolet
Except that's wrong, @Gesù And why just blame "Bergoglio"? Seems "Ratzinger" is a willing particpant in the event. Oh, that's right. You're a hypocrite. Sorry. Almost forgot. Protip: The Pope is wearing the full Papal vestments. His retired predecessor is not. The two are immediately distinguished by the presence of the Papal mozzetta. If you can't tell the difference, go be ignorant …More
Except that's wrong, @Gesù And why just blame "Bergoglio"? Seems "Ratzinger" is a willing particpant in the event. Oh, that's right. You're a hypocrite. Sorry. Almost forgot. Protip: The Pope is wearing the full Papal vestments. His retired predecessor is not. The two are immediately distinguished by the presence of the Papal mozzetta. If you can't tell the difference, go be ignorant somewhere else. MFW...
Scapular
F M Shyanguya
The Church, the Church, the Church.
Gesù è con noi
The heresiarch Jorge Mario Bergoglio bow down to Pope Benedict, Bergoglio joint blessing Bergoglio has invited
Pope Benedict to the 'canonizations' Introducing the new cardinals to be blessed by Pope Benedict, etc. These novelty shows the heresy of the double papacy professed by the heresiarch Bergoglio.
In the treatise of the Modern Schism of St Vicente Ferrer wrote: If there were two popes at …More
The heresiarch Jorge Mario Bergoglio bow down to Pope Benedict, Bergoglio joint blessing Bergoglio has invited
Pope Benedict to the 'canonizations' Introducing the new cardinals to be blessed by Pope Benedict, etc. These novelty shows the heresy of the double papacy professed by the heresiarch Bergoglio.
In the treatise of the Modern Schism of St Vicente Ferrer wrote: If there were two popes at the same time, either one would have more power than the other, or not. If one did not have more power than the other, neither of the two would be pope, because the pope has power over everyone, as has been said. If the inferior had it wouldn't be pope.
AngelusMaria
foward
Viganò expresses himself as a sedevacantist.
I think his posture is correct.
The "council popes" are blind guides of the blind.
V.R.S.
"Viganò describes Vatican II as an Ecumentical Council and, simultaneously, as the first conciliabule of “a schismatic Church” that considers herself “born of Vatican II.” - Peculiarity of that theory reminds me of abp Gaenswein's (interestingly also connected, like abp Vigano, with the so-called Vati-leaks affair) theory of two simultaneous popes.
Ultraviolet
There aren't "two simultaneous Popes". Even Benedict XVI acknowledges The Pope.
V.R.S.
@Ultraviolet
That's why I wrote about peculiarity of that theory of Msgr. Gaenswein.
Ultraviolet
No offense, @V.R.S. English is a second language for you. That is not a criticism, only an observation. Even allowing for that, your English is better than my Polish. ;-)
F M Shyanguya
@Ultraviolet Thanks you and be to all the Polish people and Poland for sharing their son Pope St. John Paul II with the world and the Church. Thanks be to God and may he bless them all for having blessed us with the great and saintly Pontiff.
Ultraviolet
No need to thank me, @F M Shyanguya . I'm not Polish. Whatever minimal fluency I have in the language does not presuppose ethnicity. My Spanish is much better but that doesn't mean I'm Spanish, either.
F M Shyanguya
How we easily assume wrongly. Lesson.
F M Shyanguya
@Ultraviolet Language aficionado? A Swahili - my country of origin’s lingua franca- saying for you:

“Wakosanao ndio wapatanao”

Mother would sing: “Great is our God and Holy is his Name .”
Ultraviolet
Me? Shucks no. I'll be the first one to admit it. ;-)