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Archbishop Hoser: New Mostar Bishop Will Help Recognize Medjugorje

Polish Archbishop Henryk Hoser, 77, the apostolic visitor to Medjugorje, staunchly defended the controversial phenomenon.

During the current Youth Festival he replied to the opponents with “Come and see and you will be able to bear witness” (Agensir.it, August 3) - although in past decades, this justification has allowed big abuses to develop.

Hoser said that "many cardinals, archbishops and bishops” visited Medjugorje since May 2019, when the prohibition for priests and bishops to organise pilgrimages fell. However, having around many modern-days prelates is no sign of quality.

The Holy See’s approach to Medjugorje is for Hoser “very positive, but the Church acts quietly and slowly,” the situation is “improving more and more” and the new Mostar bishop Petar Palic "will also help to improve the situation.”

Since the beginning in 1981, the Mostar bishops have strongly opposed the Medjugorje phenomenon.

Picture: Henryk Hoser, © Mazur, CC BY-NC-SA, #newsUdspnjpgbj

Novella Nurney
The Vatican needs$$$$$.
petrus100452
All this unbelieve in what is so obvious the work of God is a complete mystery to me. But time will tell. Mary will triumph! May God bless you all!
Alex A
@petrus100452> The work of the devil more likely! The number of visits to Medjugorje is irrelevant. X times any factor doesn't necessarily make it true. There is so much material available for research on, the so-called 'phenomena of Medjugorje', whether you would yourself, spend the time doing the research is of course, entirely up to you. Perhaps you might ponder on the words of Pope Francis …More
@petrus100452> The work of the devil more likely! The number of visits to Medjugorje is irrelevant. X times any factor doesn't necessarily make it true. There is so much material available for research on, the so-called 'phenomena of Medjugorje', whether you would yourself, spend the time doing the research is of course, entirely up to you. Perhaps you might ponder on the words of Pope Francis when he queried; "Why would OBL spend every day relaying messages and on command from the alleged seers?" Maybe not the exact quote but the import should be clear enough. I concede, that there is no way the Church authorities can 'ban' the ill-informed 'pilgrims' from going to Medjugorje, not even the civil authorities would want that to be the case, given the money that is generated for the town. There you have it: Money! Not faith, not conversions, not unproven miracles. Money! Devils money!
petrus100452
Alex A: Come on....
frawley
@Alex A - Is your research more comprehensive and accurate then the multi-year research that the 17 member commission established by Pope Benedict conducted. They found overwhelmingly that the first 10 days of the apparitions in Medjugorje were supernatural and the following apparitions undetermined at this time. They did not find any of them - "not supernatural" and did not condemn any of them.…More
@Alex A - Is your research more comprehensive and accurate then the multi-year research that the 17 member commission established by Pope Benedict conducted. They found overwhelmingly that the first 10 days of the apparitions in Medjugorje were supernatural and the following apparitions undetermined at this time. They did not find any of them - "not supernatural" and did not condemn any of them. If you think its about the money then you CLEARLY have never visited Medjugorje. While the number of visits may be irrelevant, trying to speak with authority about a place you have never been to, is relevant. The church has put restrictions on Medjugorje and the seers and priests have obeyed those restrictions. (no church sponsored pilgrimages or activities related to the apparitions in the parish church for example). Be careful of second hand internet "research". For example you can find countless sites that "prove beyond a doubt" that the Pope is the antichrist and the church has tons of gold in the basement.
Alex A
@frawley> How old are you? I'm not trying to be intrusive into your life or flippant. I only ask because I suspect I'm a great deal senior to you. Not that makes me any wiser I hasten to add, but my point being, that I have followed the saga of Medjugorje since it first 'burst' on the scene. Within a very short time, the local Ordinary, who initially was sympathetic to the alleged apparitions, …More
@frawley> How old are you? I'm not trying to be intrusive into your life or flippant. I only ask because I suspect I'm a great deal senior to you. Not that makes me any wiser I hasten to add, but my point being, that I have followed the saga of Medjugorje since it first 'burst' on the scene. Within a very short time, the local Ordinary, who initially was sympathetic to the alleged apparitions, was compelled to set up an investigation committee due to a growing chorus of local doubts as to the veracity of claims by the children and stories of their questionable behavior not traditionally associated with 'conduits' for OBL. In addition, the growing number of 'pilgrims' were placing demands on a town lacking accommodation and amenities. All this and more is readily available for researchers. The Bishop's committee was to subsequently find that there was nothing supernatural associated with the children's claims. I won't waste my time, or yours, with detailed events surrounding the local Franciscan's involvement in the saga other than to say, without their 'influence' on the children, the whole affair may well of ended there. Do your research. If you're game enough. As to your comment relating to Emeritus Pope Benedict XV1, since V2, it has been the responsibility of the Local Ordinary to ascertain the veracity of alleged claims of supernatural events, not Rome's. Certainly, Benedict did respond to a clamor of Medjugorje devotee's desire for Rome's intervention but, regardless of your sources, Benedict always referred back to the responsibility being that of the Local Ordinary.
mccallansteve
Petrus, Satan is very cunning. He is willing that some convert so that many more can be lost. Have you ever asked yourself why the Blessed Virgin would appear every day for over 35 years? What nonsense! I pray that God opens your eyes to this satanic deception
Emiles00
we are approaching 40 years since Medjugorje...
petrus100452
mccallansteve: one time the devil said to God: "give me Medjugorje and I will leave alone the rest of the world." I can understand the devil is desperate about Medjugorje.
Ultraviolet
"one time the devil said to God: "give me Medjugorje and I will leave alone the rest of the world." [citation needed]

Source? This should be interesting. There aren't too many recorded conversations between those two, especially post 1981 (presumably).
petrus100452
ultraviolet: I will look it up and will give you the source (please have a little patience).
Ultraviolet
No rush @petrus100452 When you do, please use the "@" user-name so I'm notified as in @Ultraviolet
petrus100452
@Ultraviolet : I know this is not going to increase my credibility, but I cannot find the source anymore. I know that I have read it because I am not making it up, but I cannot find the book or the article in which this was said. Sorry, sorry, sorry.... I hope that you will be convinced of the truth of Medjugorje by other signs God will give you.
Ultraviolet
Entirely not a problem @petrus100452. I do appreciate you taking the time to go looking, just the same. I've done a few online searches before I asked you and came up with nothing close. It's a mystery. If you ever happen to run across the passage, please PM me.
petrus100452
And by the way: conversions are never the work of a professor but only the work of God. The professor could have been an instrument of God, as many saints have been. But in Medjugorje the conversions are graces Mary obtains from her Son.
Dr Bobus
God works through instrumental causes (e.g., men)
petrus100452
Dr. Bobus, I visited Medjugorje more than 50 times in the past 25 years and I have guided as a priest many pilgrims. I know by experience that many conversions are authentic and lasting. So why call it "putative". Even Pope John Paul II acknowledged that the fruits of Medjugorje are conversions. The testimony of today at the youth festival - live streamed from Medjugorje.hr - of a Spanish woman …More
Dr. Bobus, I visited Medjugorje more than 50 times in the past 25 years and I have guided as a priest many pilgrims. I know by experience that many conversions are authentic and lasting. So why call it "putative". Even Pope John Paul II acknowledged that the fruits of Medjugorje are conversions. The testimony of today at the youth festival - live streamed from Medjugorje.hr - of a Spanish woman was very moving and convincingly. What is that people don't want to see the work of God?
Dr Bobus
I said the apparitions are putative;
petrus100452
Would God grant so many graces at a shrine where the apparitions are false? It is an easy way for God to deceive His people... I don't believe God is like that.
Ultraviolet
God wouldn't, but God is not the only source of supernatural manifestations in this world, is he petrus100452?
petrus100452
No, the devil is the other source. But some supernatural manifestations - like healings (lasting healings) and for all conversion (lasting conversions) can only come from God. And there have been - up to now - many of these graces in Medjugorje. So again: would God grant such graces in a shrine of false apparitions? I don't think so.
Dr Bobus
@petrus100452

You're making the same mistake: Trying to justify an argument for the Divine origin of the putative apparitions by conversions.

Where did you attend seminary?
petrus100452
What argument would you prefer? What is a stronger sign than someone who changes his sinful life to a life of love of God and neighbor? Maybe you can complete my education by explaining me what would be a valid argument (never a prove, because it always remains a matter of faith) to believe in Divine origin of an apparition.
Dr Bobus
The quality of the putative apparitions is the measure.

Conversions? The professor I studied under produced over 100 conversions, c. 15 priests, 2 conemplative nuns, and 2 bishops. Those who became monks* in France later made a foundation in the US, the only Benedictine abbey with Latin liturgy.

Neither he nor anyone else claimed he had Marian apparitions.

*except one who became a Carthusian.
petrus100452
The quality can be seen by the many conversions. By the many confessions and the return to God of many people. What more "quality" do you want?
Ultraviolet
Since you asked, how about seers who don't blame their poor grades on visions that hadn't happened yet? Also, seers who aren't so readily caught being so inconsistent, not even JUST in some increasingly murky doctrine, but also in their supposed ability to communicate with their apparaition.

You'll believe what you want to believe, this much is obvious. All the evidence in the world that this …More
Since you asked, how about seers who don't blame their poor grades on visions that hadn't happened yet? Also, seers who aren't so readily caught being so inconsistent, not even JUST in some increasingly murky doctrine, but also in their supposed ability to communicate with their apparaition.

You'll believe what you want to believe, this much is obvious. All the evidence in the world that this is a sham won't convince you any more thant evidience ever convinces the Muslims or the Mormons.
frawley
@Ultraviolet - you have still not disclosed how you obtained the transcript of the conversation between Ivan and his prefect in the 1980's that you reference above. Do you reject the finding of Pope Benedicts commission that overwhelmingly found the first 10 days of the Medjugorje apparitions supernatural? If you reject an apparition because it is not Church approved and you also reject it if it …More
@Ultraviolet - you have still not disclosed how you obtained the transcript of the conversation between Ivan and his prefect in the 1980's that you reference above. Do you reject the finding of Pope Benedicts commission that overwhelmingly found the first 10 days of the Medjugorje apparitions supernatural? If you reject an apparition because it is not Church approved and you also reject it if it is approved then are you setting yourself up as the ultimate authority?
Ultraviolet
"you have still not disclosed how you obtained the transcript of the conversation between Ivan and his prefect in the 1980's that you reference above."

Still have not? I only linked it up for you the last time we discussed this subject. Which was like... all of two days ago.

First Time: Francis Intervenes at Medjugorie Festival

The question you probably meant to ask is: Why didn't the site…More
"you have still not disclosed how you obtained the transcript of the conversation between Ivan and his prefect in the 1980's that you reference above."

Still have not? I only linked it up for you the last time we discussed this subject. Which was like... all of two days ago.

First Time: Francis Intervenes at Medjugorie Festival

The question you probably meant to ask is: Why didn't the site disclose how THEY obtained a transcript of the conversation between Ivan and his prefect in the 1980's.

...and the answer to that question is they did. You just weren't paying attention. It's right at the start of the article.
---
The Spiritual Vocations of the "Seers of Medjugorje"
Diocese of Mostar-Duvno
Chancery Office
March 5, 2010

(The present article was published in the official Bulletin of the Dioceses of Mostar-Duvno and Trebinje-Mrkan, 1/2010, pp. 114-122, March 5, 2010. This English translation was prepared on the basis of the original text in Croatian and the Italian edition published on the diocesan website.)
---

"Do you reject the finding of Pope Benedicts commission that overwhelmingly found the first 10 days of the Medjugorje apparitions supernatural? "

I'm surprised you didn't mention the recent "finding" of Pope Francis, delivered while slurping his soup. :P

First ten days, huh? And the next ten? And the thirty YEARS that have followed? You've read enough of my comments by now to realize I'm going to spot a fallacy of composition right away.

The Church's official opinion is this:

(From wiki)

"Until such time as the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith releases its findings, the 1991 determination of the Yugoslav Bishops Conference of non constat de supernaturalitate ("It is undetermined at this time if it is of supernatural origin") still stands, and the Holy See considers this judgement still operative "

I accept THAT finding because THAT is the official position of The Church. The recommendation of a commission hasn't changed that.

Technically, they were discussing only the first seven instances, but ten sounds bigger, doesn't it?

---
A commission on Medjugorje established in 2010 by Pope Benedict XVI and chaired by Cardinal Camillo Ruini voted 13-1 to confirm the supernatural origin of the first seven occurrences of the apparition only. In addition,

The commission recommends that the first 7 days of the apparitions be approved, and that the Medjugorje be turned into a pontifical sanctuary. The commission made no recommendations about the any of the apparitions which occurred after the first 7 days.
---

...and that's how a fallacy of composition crashes and burns. :D

Then there's the kind of facepalm stuff like this... (also from the wiki article linked above)

--In 2009 Father Tomislav Vlasic, the former "spiritual director" to the six visionaries was laicised at his own request by Pope Benedict XVI a year after he was placed under investigation over allegations that he exaggerated the apparitions and had engaged in sexual relations with a nun. Vlasic was under formal investigation for alleged "dubious doctrine, the manipulation of consciences, suspect mysticism and disobedience towards legitimately issued orders".--

If Fr. Vlasic was selling Pachamama visionaries, you'd be all over that like a rash -and with just cause. But since you believe in this instance, those kinds of discrediting little facts just get ignored.

Allah fails at doing math while explaining inheritance law? Allahu Akbar! The Quran is still all true and still comes from Allah!

Now, of course, The Church is in an era where it has a "saint factory" churning out beatifications, all officially valid, so it's possible the Medjugorje fans will ultimately benefit from similar standards.

Pope Francis says "good things are happening at Medjugorje", slurp, slurp, slurp.

When has our current pontiff EVER worried about the fine points of theology? Much less wading through thirty years of feel-good, theologically flawed nonsense from these "visionaries"?

Good things happen in Mormonism., too. Big, stable families. very solid "faith-based" social culture. Oh? Joseph Smith said people live on the moon and the surface of the sun? But... look at all the good happening!

You don't have to worry. Our current pontiff assigned Archbishop Hoser to the job, and the guy's probably gonna rubber-stamp the whole circus as legit.

It's a great tourist trap and brings in a bucket of cash. More importantly, a steady stream of false "Marian" teachings will dilute Church even further and that makes everyone happy, especially The God Of Surprises.

It's kinda funny in a way. The same people who scathingly denounce Francis for Pachamama-apostasy will be the first ones citing his official Pontifical declaration in favour of Medjugorje.

Isn't that right, Frawley? ;-)