Archbishop Hoser: New Mostar Bishop Will Help Recognize Medjugorje

@Alex A - Is your research more comprehensive and accurate then the multi-year research that the 17 member commission established by Pope Benedict conducted. They found overwhelmingly that the first 10 days of the apparitions in Medjugorje were supernatural and the following apparitions undetermined at this time. They did not find any of them - "not supernatural" and did not condemn any of them. If you think its about the money then you CLEARLY have never visited Medjugorje. While the number of visits may be irrelevant, trying to speak with authority about a place you have never been to, is relevant. The church has put restrictions on Medjugorje and the seers and priests have obeyed those restrictions. (no church sponsored pilgrimages or activities related to the apparitions in the parish church for example). Be careful of second hand internet "research". For example you can find countless sites that "prove beyond a doubt" that the Pope is the antichrist and the church has tons of gold in the basement.

@frawley> How old are you? I'm not trying to be intrusive into your life or flippant. I only ask because I suspect I'm a great deal senior to you. Not that makes me any wiser I hasten to add, but my point being, that I have followed the saga of Medjugorje since it first 'burst' on the scene. Within a very short time, the local Ordinary, who initially was sympathetic to the alleged apparitions, was compelled to set up an investigation committee due to a growing chorus of local doubts as to the veracity of claims by the children and stories of their questionable behavior not traditionally associated with 'conduits' for OBL. In addition, the growing number of 'pilgrims' were placing demands on a town lacking accommodation and amenities. All this and more is readily available for researchers. The Bishop's committee was to subsequently find that there was nothing supernatural associated with the children's claims. I won't waste my time, or yours, with detailed events surrounding the local Franciscan's involvement in the saga other than to say, without their 'influence' on the children, the whole affair may well of ended there. Do your research. If you're game enough. As to your comment relating to Emeritus Pope Benedict XV1, since V2, it has been the responsibility of the Local Ordinary to ascertain the veracity of alleged claims of supernatural events, not Rome's. Certainly, Benedict did respond to a clamor of Medjugorje devotee's desire for Rome's intervention but, regardless of your sources, Benedict always referred back to the responsibility being that of the Local Ordinary.

"one time the devil said to God: "give me Medjugorje and I will leave alone the rest of the world." [citation needed]

Source? This should be interesting. There aren't too many recorded conversations between those two, especially post 1981 (presumably).

@petrus100452

You're making the same mistake: Trying to justify an argument for the Divine origin of the putative apparitions by conversions.

Where did you attend seminary?

Since you asked, how about seers who don't blame their poor grades on visions that hadn't happened yet? Also, seers who aren't so readily caught being so inconsistent, not even JUST in some increasingly murky doctrine, but also in their supposed ability to communicate with their apparaition.

You'll believe what you want to believe, this much is obvious. All the evidence in the world that this is a sham won't convince you any more thant evidience ever convinces the Muslims or the Mormons.

@Ultraviolet - you have still not disclosed how you obtained the transcript of the conversation between Ivan and his prefect in the 1980's that you reference above. Do you reject the finding of Pope Benedicts commission that overwhelmingly found the first 10 days of the Medjugorje apparitions supernatural? If you reject an apparition because it is not Church approved and you also reject it if it is approved then are you setting yourself up as the ultimate authority?

"you have still not disclosed how you obtained the transcript of the conversation between Ivan and his prefect in the 1980's that you reference above."

Still have not? I only linked it up for you the last time we discussed this subject. Which was like... all of two days ago.

First Time: Francis Intervenes at Medjugorie Festival

The question you probably meant to ask is: Why didn't the site disclose how THEY obtained a transcript of the conversation between Ivan and his prefect in the 1980's.

...and the answer to that question is they did. You just weren't paying attention. It's right at the start of the article.
---
The Spiritual Vocations of the "Seers of Medjugorje"
Diocese of Mostar-Duvno
Chancery Office
March 5, 2010

(The present article was published in the official Bulletin of the Dioceses of Mostar-Duvno and Trebinje-Mrkan, 1/2010, pp. 114-122, March 5, 2010. This English translation was prepared on the basis of the original text in Croatian and the Italian edition published on the diocesan website.)
---

"Do you reject the finding of Pope Benedicts commission that overwhelmingly found the first 10 days of the Medjugorje apparitions supernatural? "

I'm surprised you didn't mention the recent "finding" of Pope Francis, delivered while slurping his soup. :P

First ten days, huh? And the next ten? And the thirty YEARS that have followed? You've read enough of my comments by now to realize I'm going to spot a fallacy of composition right away.

The Church's official opinion is this:

(From wiki)

"Until such time as the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith releases its findings, the 1991 determination of the Yugoslav Bishops Conference of non constat de supernaturalitate ("It is undetermined at this time if it is of supernatural origin") still stands, and the Holy See considers this judgement still operative "

I accept THAT finding because THAT is the official position of The Church. The recommendation of a commission hasn't changed that.

Technically, they were discussing only the first seven instances, but ten sounds bigger, doesn't it?

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A commission on Medjugorje established in 2010 by Pope Benedict XVI and chaired by Cardinal Camillo Ruini voted 13-1 to confirm the supernatural origin of the first seven occurrences of the apparition only. In addition,

The commission recommends that the first 7 days of the apparitions be approved, and that the Medjugorje be turned into a pontifical sanctuary. The commission made no recommendations about the any of the apparitions which occurred after the first 7 days.
---

...and that's how a fallacy of composition crashes and burns. :D

Then there's the kind of facepalm stuff like this... (also from the wiki article linked above)

--In 2009 Father Tomislav Vlasic, the former "spiritual director" to the six visionaries was laicised at his own request by Pope Benedict XVI a year after he was placed under investigation over allegations that he exaggerated the apparitions and had engaged in sexual relations with a nun. Vlasic was under formal investigation for alleged "dubious doctrine, the manipulation of consciences, suspect mysticism and disobedience towards legitimately issued orders".--

If Fr. Vlasic was selling Pachamama visionaries, you'd be all over that like a rash -and with just cause. But since you believe in this instance, those kinds of discrediting little facts just get ignored.

Allah fails at doing math while explaining inheritance law? Allahu Akbar! The Quran is still all true and still comes from Allah!

Now, of course, The Church is in an era where it has a "saint factory" churning out beatifications, all officially valid, so it's possible the Medjugorje fans will ultimately benefit from similar standards.

Pope Francis says "good things are happening at Medjugorje", slurp, slurp, slurp.

When has our current pontiff EVER worried about the fine points of theology? Much less wading through thirty years of feel-good, theologically flawed nonsense from these "visionaries"?

Good things happen in Mormonism., too. Big, stable families. very solid "faith-based" social culture. Oh? Joseph Smith said people live on the moon and the surface of the sun? But... look at all the good happening!

You don't have to worry. Our current pontiff assigned Archbishop Hoser to the job, and the guy's probably gonna rubber-stamp the whole circus as legit.

It's a great tourist trap and brings in a bucket of cash. More importantly, a steady stream of false "Marian" teachings will dilute Church even further and that makes everyone happy, especially The God Of Surprises.

It's kinda funny in a way. The same people who scathingly denounce Francis for Pachamama-apostasy will be the first ones citing his official Pontifical declaration in favour of Medjugorje.

Isn't that right, Frawley? ;-)