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20 2.5KSep 17, 2022

Hard Facts: Catholicism Collapsed Because of Vatican II

French historian Guillaume Cuchet analyses in his 2018 book How Our World Stopped Being Christian the collapse of Western Catholicism in the 20th century (CatholicWorldReport.com, September 13).

During centuries, changes were slow like dips (French Revolution) and peaks (Saints like Jean Vianney or Thérèse of Lisieux) but 1965 was a sudden, unexpected rupture in terms of Mass attendance and - even more dramatically - confession and baptism.

Cuchet corrects the myth that the decline was 1968 (student revolt, sexual revolution) and shows with seven reasons that 1965 and Vatican II were its starting point when Mass attendance dropped in France from 25% to less than 2% today:

1. The thesis of religious liberty was applied ad intra and presented as "freedom of conscience" [freedom from the Faith] to make up another doctrine and discipline.

2. There was a discrepancy between Vatican II and the Catholic popular piety. In shrines where popular piety was respected, the collapse was much slower.

3. The psychological and anthropological determinants of the liturgy were changed by introducing things like the vernacular, grabbing Communion, presiding towards the public.

4. A high expectation regarding Catholics’ commitment was imposed, e.g. access to baptism was tight to preparation classes for the parents and matrimony went from a sociological convention to a public declaration of faith.

5. The four last things Judgment, Purgatory, Heaven, Hell became obsolete, giving the impression that the clergy had either ceased to believe them or no longer knew how to speak about them.

6. There was a collective exit from compulsory practices such as keeping days of obligation, attending Sunday Mass, confessing, receiving Easter Communion, fasting.

7. Under the former catechetical system, 80% of French children attended Sunday Mass and monthly confession. This was part of the preparation for Solemn First Communion, a socially resonant rite including a fancy lunch, dresses and gifts.

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Ralph Alexander Michael Curtis

Sep 17, 2022

Vatican II was long in the planning by the enemies of the Church.
Catholic Conspiracy and the Alta Vendita (Ep 24)

Hugh N. Cry

Sep 17, 2022

Proof is in the pudding.

P. O'B

Sep 17, 2022

Agree. (But the four last things are Death, Judgment, Heaven, and Hell.)

Dante Alighieri

Sep 17, 2022

That's a difficult proposition to maintain. In 1961 calling an ecumenical council would not have appeared to be evil, and in fact, as far as I can tell from my readings, nobody did call it an evil gathering of malicious-intending bishops. Nobody. It was completely legitimate. Unless you find something unpublished Padre Pio allegedly said to someone in private, unconfirmed.

SHJ-IHM

Sep 17, 2022

Actually I remember hearing that many tradition-minded bishops thought it was a bad idea at the time. There was no specific heresy that it would deal with, nor any other typical reason for calling the council. There was already agitation against the liturgy and dogma, and the council was not intended to correct any of that.

Seabass

Sep 17, 2022

Yes, a group of prelates published a book under the pen name Maurice Penay called the "Plot Against the Church". It was a warning about the upcoming council.

Seabass

Sep 17, 2022

colchestercollection.com/authors/P/maurice-pinay.html

Dante Alighieri

Sep 17, 2022

@SHJ-IHM The reference is to the fear that anything can happen in a council, so there was anxiety, but all the (at the time) good bishops voted in near unanimity. The council even afterwards did not seem heretical.

Dante Alighieri

Sep 17, 2022

@Seabass I had the book and read parts of it. Do not know what to think of it. True regarding how many Jews for example were involved in the short lived Hungarian communist experiment before WW2, which I had to look up since it is not well known, but overall, a cursory look at the book would make a normal person today to see it as extremely antisemitic, and I really am not so sure the Jews are the cause of all the world's evil. Some here might disagree, eg regarding their involvement in Freemasonry, but I'm not going there myself. So, a very very tiny cult like group thought ill of the council.

One more comment from Dante Alighieri

Dante Alighieri

Sep 17, 2022

@Seabass I think you can look up the book you referenced yourself. It is not "a warning about the upcoming council," but a screed against the Jews. It might be correct in many of its facts, but I am not sure what it has to do with the council, although it was supposed to have been written anonymously by anti-council clerics. Maybe John XXIII said some favorable things about them, he did alter the Latin Mass to remove the reference to the "perfidious Jews." Also in the council documents, some positive things are said about the Jews. But the book is a history of (alleged?) Jewish conspiracies against the Church. I think the book says Arius was a converted Jew, that's an interesting tidbit that I never heard before, do not know if it's true or not, could be, but life is short and I do not have time to verify every fact. By the way, Saint John of the Cross and St Teresa of Avila were from Jewish families which had converted to Catholicism.

Seabass

Sep 18, 2022

12 Cardinals is not a 'cult group'.

Seabass

Sep 18, 2022

And my whole point in mentioning the book was to point out to you that indeed there were high level objections to the coucil at the time, regardless of if you personally may care for them.

Dante Alighieri

Sep 18, 2022

@Seabass Read the vote tallies on the documents ratified at Vatican II. The bishops voting were in the 2000 to 2500 range. And there was near unanimity in the acceptance. You can look it up, but usually only 100 bishops voted against. So yes, 12 is a fringe cult group.

Seabass

Sep 18, 2022

Pfft

rhemes1582

Sep 17, 2022

Hard facts II Bishops that continue to persecute their priests. and laity for desiring the liturgy, and liturgical practices of our Catholic ancestors before Vat2 are participating in the destruction of the Catholic Faith.
Bishops: Please in the name of Jesus stop persecuting the Church.
For those Bishops protecting the Faith: Thank You, and Deo GratiasMore

Hard facts II Bishops that continue to persecute their priests. and laity for desiring the liturgy, and liturgical practices of our Catholic ancestors before Vat2 are participating in the destruction of the Catholic Faith.

Bishops: Please in the name of Jesus stop persecuting the Church.
For those Bishops protecting the Faith: Thank You, and Deo Gratias

Jeffrey Ade

Sep 17, 2022

It started when the Holy Father did not consecrate Russia and fulfill Our Lady of Fatima's requests!

Cassandra Laments

Sep 17, 2022

Spot on and it speeded up when the Third Secret wasn't revealed in 1960, when all should have become clearer - presumably after the VII Council had been was announced the previous year.

Jeffrey Ade

Sep 18, 2022

@Cassandra Laments Exactly! I find it curious some want to point their finger at Francis, when this has been going on for a long time. Are they trying to draw our attention away from the real cause of our Chastisement?

Cassandra Laments

Sep 18, 2022

Well, I suppose there are plenty of people who haven't yet delved into the history of the last few decades and genuinely think that everything was fine before Francis and that it is he not VII which is the only problem. I think though that there are also plenty (probably the vocal majority) who are indeed trying to mislead the first group. I'm not sure how many people would fall into the third group …More

Hound of Heaven

Sep 17, 2022

This is so apparent that it defies credibility that even the perceived 'more orthodox' clergy and hierarchy are seriously remiss when they do not openly acknowledge, at the very least, most of these 'rotten fruits' which are the direct result of Vatican II, and the perverse use of the council to 'elbow in' and implement changes never even contain in the council documents themselves.