The great deception in the Catholic Church

The great deception in the Catholic Church In the name of 'theology', which is presented as a difficult subject and is there for only those who can learn Latin, Greek and Hebrew, changes have been …
Jesus went to the lower levels of Purgatory which are like Hell.
I have read Catherine Anna Emerich and I appreciate her writings, also Dante Alighieri.
Reesorville
In one common translation of the Creed we say 'He was crucified, died and was buried. He descended into hell. On the third day He arose again from the dead'

The catechism states this: '633 Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, "hell" - Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek - because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God.479 Such is the case for …More
In one common translation of the Creed we say 'He was crucified, died and was buried. He descended into hell. On the third day He arose again from the dead'

The catechism states this: '633 Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, "hell" - Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek - because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God.479 Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the Redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into "Abraham's bosom":480 "It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Saviour in Abraham's bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell."481 Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.482' (www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1R.HTM)

Which, if you follow through with it, therefore means that Abraham, Moses, Esther, Isaiah, etc. were in hell. But their lots were not the same as those who were condemned to be there forever. Hence your statement that a person in hell must necessarily be there forever is thereby false. Scripture and tradition both call this place 'hell'.

When Christ went to preach to the souls in hell after He was crucified, I don't see any reason why we would have to exclude the possibility that He gave baptism of water to them there, and that they therefore also entered the church through the same means as the living did.

The church says that eternal hellfire is reserved to unrepentant sinners because of their refusal by their own free-choice to let go of their sins. If a person is not a sinner, but they just lacked knowledge, and would have gladly accepted the faith had they known of its existence, then they are obviously not unrepentant sinners. Both will go to hell, as the Council stated, but with 'unequal pains'.

Have you ever read Anne Catherine's Emmerich's supposed visions of the Passion? In the part where where Jesus descends to hell, there is a vivid description given in the text whereby He first meets Adam and Eve in a dark place, then the other people of the old testament, then He visits a cavern filled with pagans who had lived holy lives and demons were in it confessing to the pagans how they had deceived them with idols, and then finally Jesus enters the city of the damned where all the souls in eternal damnation are abiding.

Here is the text: " I next saw our Lord, with his triumphant procession, enter into a species of Purgatory which was filled with those good pagans who, having had a faint glimmering of the truth, had longed for its fulfilment: this Purgatory was very deep, and contained a few demons, as also some of the idols of the pagans. I saw the demons compelled to confess the deception they had practised with regard to these idols, and the souls of the poor pagans cast themselves at the feet of Jesus, and adored him with inexpressible joy: here, likewise, the demons were bound with chains and dragged away. I saw our Saviour perform many other actions; but I suffered so intensely at the same time, that I cannot recount them as I should have wished." (www.jesus-passion.com/THE_PASSION6.htm LIX)

I note that although it does not say specifically that He did not take away any souls out of that place, but I draw your attention to the fact that she claims it is 'a species of Purgatory', implying that a purification is taking place and it is not permanent.

The number of magisterial documents that support the conclusion that all outside the church go to hell is massive. I don't disagree with you. But can you find a document that actually disproves the thesis I just presented here, and specifically states that those who die in orginal sin only are punished eternally?
But, if a person in hell received faith and baptism while they were there, wouldn't the person then be getting to heaven through Jesus Christ and the church he founded? What is the contradiction between this idea and what the council stated?
The person in Hell is damned forever.God chose it this way.

If a person can receive baptism by an angel, by being resurrected back to life, by some supernat…More
But, if a person in hell received faith and baptism while they were there, wouldn't the person then be getting to heaven through Jesus Christ and the church he founded? What is the contradiction between this idea and what the council stated?
The person in Hell is damned forever.God chose it this way.

If a person can receive baptism by an angel, by being resurrected back to life, by some supernatural person... why not this as well?
He chose the Catholic Church as the only Ark of Salvation in the flood (CCC 845).God the Father wants all people to be united in the Catholic Church (CCC 845).He chose that salvation is available only through 'faith and baptism' for all (Ad Gentes 7,Vatican Council II).God has chosen it this way.He chose salvation only through His Son.He chose salvation only through the baptism of water.
Reesorville
But, if a person in hell received faith and baptism while they were there, wouldn't the person then be getting to heaven through Jesus Christ and the church he founded? What is the contradiction between this idea and what the council stated?

If a person can receive baptism by an angel, by being resurrected back to life, by some supernatural person... why not this as well?
Lionel L. Andrades
However, consider this now: Abraham, John the baptist, Isaiah, Moses...
They had to wait in Abraham's bosom until the Resurrection.It was only then that they could go to Heaven.
After Jesus' Sacrifice the only way to Heaven is through Jesus Christ in the only Church he founded.
Reesorville
OK, I got it, I understand it now, thank you!

Now, there is something I should note, however. Since the concept of the supposed 'baptism of desire' is, as you must know, the idea that Jesus would not reject someone, simply on account of an innocent lack of awareness of a need to join the church. What you are saying makes sense, however, because the idea that someone without baptism or without …More
OK, I got it, I understand it now, thank you!

Now, there is something I should note, however. Since the concept of the supposed 'baptism of desire' is, as you must know, the idea that Jesus would not reject someone, simply on account of an innocent lack of awareness of a need to join the church. What you are saying makes sense, however, because the idea that someone without baptism or without the church can get to heaven appears to be completely contradicted by what that council stated in the 15th century.

However, consider this now: Abraham, John the baptist, Isaiah, Moses... they all would have died before Christ and hence were without baptism and were never joined to Christ's body before their death, but when Christ went down to hell and preached to the dead, we believe that they must have been saved as well. Could it have been that they were baptized in hell and then entered into heaven? And if so, is it inconceivable that the same could be possibly be true of other people today who died without baptism?

I think this wouldn't pose any necessary contradiction with what you are saying, because all such people would still need baptism and faith to find salvation, but they would just receive it while they were dead. What do you think?
Lionel L. Andrades
Your position is a little clearer to me now, but I want to reiterate just to make sure I got it right-> You are saying that if a person dies without baptism, but they find salvation in the end, then somehow they still must get baptism before finding salvation, like in the case of a person who returns to life in order to get baptized or who was maybe baptized by an angel or some supernatural …More
Your position is a little clearer to me now, but I want to reiterate just to make sure I got it right-> You are saying that if a person dies without baptism, but they find salvation in the end, then somehow they still must get baptism before finding salvation, like in the case of a person who returns to life in order to get baptized or who was maybe baptized by an angel or some supernatural person, etc....but without the baptism through some such means, then they cannot find salvation... is that correct?
YES
Reesorville
Thank you for your response!

For the part about the council and those in original sin, here is the actual text: 'But the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go down straightaway to hell to be punished, but with unequal pains.' (www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/FLORENCE.HTM)

What is the basis for saying that those who die in original sin only …More
Thank you for your response!

For the part about the council and those in original sin, here is the actual text: 'But the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go down straightaway to hell to be punished, but with unequal pains.' (www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/FLORENCE.HTM)

What is the basis for saying that those who die in original sin only go to limbo, but not hell? The council explicitly uses the word 'hell'

Your position is a little clearer to me now, but I want to reiterate just to make sure I got it right-> You are saying that if a person dies without baptism, but they find salvation in the end, then somehow they still must get baptism before finding salvation, like in the case of a person who returns to life in order to get baptized or who was maybe baptized by an angel or some supernatural person, etc....but without the baptism through some such means, then they cannot find salvation... is that correct?
Lionel L. Andrades
The council of Basel-Ferrara-Florence claimed that all people outside the church, whether Jewish, pagan, heretic or schismatic, no matter whether they even die in Christ's name, all go to hell immediately upon death. Do you believe that this is true?
YES

The same council also said that all who die in original sin only, but without mortal sin, also go to hell immediately upon death, but with …More
The council of Basel-Ferrara-Florence claimed that all people outside the church, whether Jewish, pagan, heretic or schismatic, no matter whether they even die in Christ's name, all go to hell immediately upon death. Do you believe that this is true?
YES

The same council also said that all who die in original sin only, but without mortal sin, also go to hell immediately upon death, but with unequal pains. Do you believe that this is true?
They go to Limbo. It is not Hell. Neither is it Heaven.

If a catechumen dies before he receives baptism, does he go to hell?
This is hypothetical case. If there was a specific person then the question would be relevant.
In general all without the baptism of water in the Catholic Church are on the way to Hell. If there was exception it would be someone whom God has chosen to save, with the baptism of water and Catholic faith.
St. Thomas Aquinas mentions the man in the forest in ignorance whom God would send a preacher to teach and baptism him, if he was to be saved.
St. Francis Xavier mentions people who died, but were not condemned to death.God sent them back to earth only to be baptised with water.


If a baby dies before he or she is baptized, does he go to hell?
To Limbo.
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If a person in another religion or without a religion dies without mortal sin on his conscience and a desire to know the Truth, does he go to hell?
He needs faith with the baptism of water for salvation.
_____________________________

I keep reading what you say about there being no known exception to EENS... but I am confused. I am not sure whether you are asserting these things I write above or not, so I am wondering if you could provide specific answers.

When you say that there are no known exceptions, I am confused by whether you mean that there could be exceptions, and we just don't know them, or whether you actually mean that there are no exceptions at all. Thank you for your time!
There are no known exceptions.All need faith and baptism for salvation.
This is the ordinary means of salvation.
There is no known extra ordinary means of salvation.
Since for us humans there cannot be any known salvation outside the Church.
All who are in Heaven are Catholics. There are only Catholics in Heaven.
Reesorville
I am wondering if I could ask some questions, if that is OK? Because I am not sure I completely understand your position.

The council of Basel-Ferrara-Florence claimed that all people outside the church, whether Jewish, pagan, heretic or schismatic, no matter whether they even die in Christ's name, all go to hell immediately upon death. Do you believe that this is true?

The same council also …More
I am wondering if I could ask some questions, if that is OK? Because I am not sure I completely understand your position.

The council of Basel-Ferrara-Florence claimed that all people outside the church, whether Jewish, pagan, heretic or schismatic, no matter whether they even die in Christ's name, all go to hell immediately upon death. Do you believe that this is true?

The same council also said that all who die in original sin only, but without mortal sin, also go to hell immediately upon death, but with unequal pains. Do you believe that this is true?

If a catechumen dies before he receives baptism, does he go to hell?

If a baby dies before he or she is baptized, does he go to hell?

If a person in another religion or without a religion dies without mortal sin on his conscience and a desire to know the Truth, does he go to hell?

I keep reading what you say about there being no known exception to EENS... but I am confused. I am not sure whether you are asserting these things I write above or not, so I am wondering if you could provide specific answers.

When you say that there are no known exceptions, I am confused by whether you mean that there could be exceptions, and we just don't know them, or whether you actually mean that there are no exceptions at all. Thank you for your time!