Uncle Joe
132505

Cardinal Burke calls resignation of BXVI into question

In a December 21st interview with the newspaper of the Diocese of Macau (China), Cardinal Raymond Burke was asked to comment on the resignation of Pope Benedict XVI. Link
BrTomFordeOFMCap
Rafał_Ovile Actually, as a layman, you have the duty of making your concerns known to your bishop and to the Pope. I would suggest, though, that in the matter validity of the Papal election we keep our opinions to ourselves. It is certianly way above my pay grade. We will answer for every word to the Lord Himself especially those that may cause others to lose their faith. Outside of writing …More
Rafał_Ovile Actually, as a layman, you have the duty of making your concerns known to your bishop and to the Pope. I would suggest, though, that in the matter validity of the Papal election we keep our opinions to ourselves. It is certianly way above my pay grade. We will answer for every word to the Lord Himself especially those that may cause others to lose their faith. Outside of writing directly to the HF then there is only prayer and sacrifice. We can entrust ourselves to the Lord and His Immaculate Mother and wait for them to act.
Rafał_Ovile
BrTom what can a laymen without juridical authority "do"? As far as I know a lay person may only opinion orally and writtenly on basis of CL 212. Opinion and pray.
BrTomFordeOFMCap
Rafał_Ovile You still haven't answered my previous question: "What will you do when Benedict dies?"
Rafał_Ovile
BrTom you should learn the Catholic method of dialogue. Speculative reasoning has not much to do with it. Plato and Bonaventure might not help either. Try classical pillars of logic. If anything is unclear please feel free to ask for clarification...
Since you refuse to cite any literature on the matter which could be publicly disputed then I conclude you are here to dictate and enforce false …More
BrTom you should learn the Catholic method of dialogue. Speculative reasoning has not much to do with it. Plato and Bonaventure might not help either. Try classical pillars of logic. If anything is unclear please feel free to ask for clarification...
Since you refuse to cite any literature on the matter which could be publicly disputed then I conclude you are here to dictate and enforce false obedience and erroneous papolatry. Pope Benedict XVI has clearly shown the evil fruits of modern Saints from Gallen out of God's will...
Uncle Joe silence is worth a thousand words as I pointed above. These self proclaimed "Saints" are in schism, killing the visible Church and collecting their rotten fruits. Pope Benedict XVI is the master of tactics who is showing with HIS will what the present highest legislator will do if Princes are not obedient to God, 2000+ year Magisterium and a valid Pope - BXVI who still lives and remains the true POPE...
BrTomFordeOFMCap
Uncle Joe We do appear to read the title differently. I mean no attack on you personally. You meant it to say that he merely "casts doubt, suspicion, and skepticism" on Benedict's resignation and I agree with that. But it can also be read to mean that he questions the validity of that very resignation which is the way that I read it. That is, you will agree, a far more serious matter and some of …More
Uncle Joe We do appear to read the title differently. I mean no attack on you personally. You meant it to say that he merely "casts doubt, suspicion, and skepticism" on Benedict's resignation and I agree with that. But it can also be read to mean that he questions the validity of that very resignation which is the way that I read it. That is, you will agree, a far more serious matter and some of the regular commenters here will provide ample proof that I am not the only one who reads it that way.
BTW with a degree in philosophy and another one in theology I am familiar with both Aristotle and Aquinas. I prefer Plato and Bonaventure.
Uncle Joe likes this.
BrTomFordeOFMCap
Rafał_Ovile You still haven't answered my previous question: "What will you do when Benedict dies?"

I don't doubt your sincerity but I do find your English and your logic hard to follow at times. As for my reading on Benedict's resignation. Those works you cite are not the research of scholars but the speculations of journalists. There's a saying in English: paper does not refue ink. I, and …More
Rafał_Ovile You still haven't answered my previous question: "What will you do when Benedict dies?"

I don't doubt your sincerity but I do find your English and your logic hard to follow at times. As for my reading on Benedict's resignation. Those works you cite are not the research of scholars but the speculations of journalists. There's a saying in English: paper does not refue ink. I, and others, have pointed out that Benedict stepped down from his post as Bishop of Rome and Pope of the Universal Church. He treats Francis as his successor. There is only one Bishop of Rome and only one Pope and it is Francis.
Uncle Joe
Oy vey! Again with this nonsense!
BTF
Written to Uncle Joe: Actually you should reread the article.
I've read it several times. However, you need to reread what you have actually written.

To refresh your memory. Yesterday you wrote:
The headline Cardinal Burke calls resignation of BXVI into question is a disservice to readers.

Your above comment is patently false. Burke very clearly casts doub…More
Oy vey! Again with this nonsense!
BTF
Written to Uncle Joe: Actually you should reread the article.
I've read it several times. However, you need to reread what you have actually written.

To refresh your memory. Yesterday you wrote:
The headline Cardinal Burke calls resignation of BXVI into question is a disservice to readers.

Your above comment is patently false. Burke very clearly casts doubt, suspicion, and skepticism regarding Benedict's claims for resigning.

Therefore, the title of this article Cardinal Burke calls resignation of BXVI into question is absolutely correct and you are absolutely wrong for stating otherwise.
------------------------------------------
Again, you need to be careful what you write since you are further discrediting yourself and GTV by your obstinacy in clinging to manifest falsehoods.

Perhaps it would be prudent for you to some time reading Aristotelian logic or the Summa especailly as they address truth and falsehood. I've included brief relevant passages from both.

Aristotle’s well-known definition of truth (Metaphysics 1011b25): “To say of what is that it is not, or of what is not that it is, is false, while to say of what is that it is, and of what is not that it is not, is true”

Thomas Aquinas “Veritas est adaequatio rei et intellectus” (Truth is the equation of thing and intellect), which he restates as: “A judgment is said to be true when it conforms to the external reality”.
-----------------------------------------------------

Rafał I'm not a fan of Francis but I don't like what God's Rottweiler allowed and continues to allow to happen without making any comment. The hierarchy of the Catholic Church is and has been in bad shape for decades. Francis is, unfortunately, our pope. It clearly is a scandal worsening by the day but other than appearing with pitchforks and torches at Casa Santa Marta, he's Pope till he dies.
Rafał_Ovile
BrTom Since you confirm in this sentence: "The Cardinal, as I read him, is saying that the reasons were insufficient in his opinion as the Pope does not have to actually carry out the task of travelling and he was stronger in mind than he seemed." then the reason for resignation is questionable what Canon Law, the above title and Cardinal Burke also state. Certainly subjective is your interpret…More
BrTom Since you confirm in this sentence: "The Cardinal, as I read him, is saying that the reasons were insufficient in his opinion as the Pope does not have to actually carry out the task of travelling and he was stronger in mind than he seemed." then the reason for resignation is questionable what Canon Law, the above title and Cardinal Burke also state. Certainly subjective is your interpretation that this truth would lead to a conclusion that BXVI has lied. Natural feelings of disappointment are also subjective accidentals and do not constitute proof of validity of resignation and should be excluded from the process of evidence. Consider it would be logical for any benevolent and mature Pope for the good of the Church to prevent a visible schism by withdrawing extensive reasoning for his decision discerned with GOD. There is missing evidence in Pope BXVI's last words and many canonical-historic reflections on BXVI "renuntiato". By law of logical non-contradiction if the objective and continuous attacks on BXVI were revealed then any removal from Office would be impossible. As Canon law excludes resignation from office in situation of unjust circumstances. However submission of incomplete reasons are justifiable and preventive against schism in these unprecedented circumstances. Therefore the valid Pope BXVI only abdicated because of insufficient reasons to completely resign and sufficient to abdicate due to objective: constant attacks, pressure, lack of protection and obedience from Princes; having direct influence upon his physical and mental strength. At this stage I would not doubt your good intentions out of love and service for the Church. However I would ask of you: please give examples of literature which you have personally read on the subject? Specifically books or reflections which cover pope BXVI's pontificate and abdication in an extensive and complete manner. I don't want to have a continuous notion you are commenting without any knowledge on the matter except to undermine the intellect and will of sound Catholics who observe reality and have evidence of BXVI being a valid pope although forced out of governance.
BrTomFordeOFMCap
Uncle Joe Actually you should reread the article. The Cardinal, as I read him, is saying that the reasons were insufficient in his opinion as the Pope does not have to actually carry out the task of travelling and he was stronger in mind than he seemed. The first is true but the second is subjective. He isn't calling Benedict a liar (which would be the case if they were not true) but expressing …More
Uncle Joe Actually you should reread the article. The Cardinal, as I read him, is saying that the reasons were insufficient in his opinion as the Pope does not have to actually carry out the task of travelling and he was stronger in mind than he seemed. The first is true but the second is subjective. He isn't calling Benedict a liar (which would be the case if they were not true) but expressing his disappointment that Benedict did not hold out. One should always be careful not to put words into other people's mouths.
Uncle Joe
The headline is perfectly accurate however your statement does a disservice to anyone who reads it

You wrote:
Cardinal Burke does NOT question the resignation
Actually, Burke does question the resignation.
-----------------------------------
I am including the relevant portions of the article which you, of course, failed to do.

-----------------------------------------------------

Cardinal …More
The headline is perfectly accurate however your statement does a disservice to anyone who reads it

You wrote:
Cardinal Burke does NOT question the resignation
Actually, Burke does question the resignation.
-----------------------------------
I am including the relevant portions of the article which you, of course, failed to do.

-----------------------------------------------------

Cardinal Burke is plainly saying that he does not believe that Pope Benedict lacked the “strength of mind” necessary “to adequately fulfill the [Petrine] ministry entrusted to me;” one of the reasons he gave in his Declaratio of 10 February 2013 announcing his intent to resign; the other being that he lacked the “strength of body” to continue.

Someone said that “he was not longer able to travel or bear many audiences.”

That “someone” was Pope Benedict XVI himself, who in an August 2016 interview with akacatholic.com/benedicts-bombs… cited as the primary factor (“above all”) in his decision to resign:

Above all, I realized that I was no longer able to face the future in transoceanic flights due to the problem of time zones …

About this claim concerning his “strength of body,” Cardinal Burke also cried foul:

Who says that the pope has to travel? This is not part of the Petrine ministry.
In short, Cardinal Burke is telling us that neither of the two reasons given by Benedict in the Declaratio were, in his estimation, true statements.
---------------------------------------------------------
You wrote:

Cardinal Burke does NOT question the resignation

To repeat:
Cardinal Burke is telling us that neither of the two reasons given by Benedict in the Declaratio were, in his estimation, true statements.
--------------------------------------------------
Once again:
You wrote:
Cardinal Burke does NOT question the resignation
----------------------------------------------

For the 3rd time:

Cardinal Burke is telling us that neither of the two reasons given by Benedict in the Declaratio were, in his estimation, true statements.
==========================================


Try for accuracy in your comments. You are doing a disservice to yourself and to GTV by posting half truths.
Rafał_Ovile likes this.
mattsixteen24 likes this.
BrTomFordeOFMCap
The headline is a disservice to readers. Cardinal Burke does NOT question the resignation but shares its impact on him personally as well as how it has affected the faithful. He isn't buying into the conspiracy theories nor denying the validity and legality of Francis' papacy as some might like to think!

The relevant section is here below:

"I would like to speak with you about Benedict XVI. At …
More
The headline is a disservice to readers. Cardinal Burke does NOT question the resignation but shares its impact on him personally as well as how it has affected the faithful. He isn't buying into the conspiracy theories nor denying the validity and legality of Francis' papacy as some might like to think!

The relevant section is here below:

"I would like to speak with you about Benedict XVI. At the time of his resignation, what did you feel?

It was an action that took me by surprise. It is clear that Pope Benedict has reached a certain age, but certainly he was in full possession of his faculties. Someone said that “he was not longer able to travel or bear many audiences.” But I ask myself: who says that the pope has to travel or that he has to receive so many people? I think it is necessary to re-examine the substance of the Petrine office. I would also say that it was not a good thing for the Church to lose its universal shepherd: there is a certain feeling among many Catholics that their father abandoned them. I hope it does not become a common practice.

Isn’t the pope’s traveling and seeing so many people something inherited from the times of John Paul II, and perhaps also Paul VI? Maybe these popes have introduced a new way of understanding the office of the Supreme Pontiff, which is not so essential?

Certainly Pope Paul VI began to travel a bit, just as he began to grant these interviews, for example the ones he gave to Jean Guitton, a French author. Pope John Paul II wanted to face the crisis of the Church with a new evangelization; that is why he traveled so often. But this not part of the Petrine ministry per se, whose mission is to safeguard the unity and the practice of the faith, and especially the liturgy.

Don’t you think that Benedict XVI, who saw the final years of John Paul II—we all remember him being very sick in his last years—feared to repeat these things?

It is naturally a fear. If I’m not mistaken, Pius XII was concerned about this matter. But it can happen to any pope, because a pope does not know how long he will have possession of his full faculties. But we must trust ourselves to our Lord and to the Church, which has the means to confront the situation of a pope who truly is no longer capable."
Rafał_Ovile shares this.
Rafał_Ovile
How about a new act of fidelity Uncle Joe ? Especially, considering that after their last one [see below] something went very wrong. May be God had something to say to C4 and the Church? Everything is possible and God knows what will happen... "We wish to begin by renewing our absolute dedication and our unconditional love for the Chair of Peter and for Your august person, in whom we recognize …More
How about a new act of fidelity Uncle Joe ? Especially, considering that after their last one [see below] something went very wrong. May be God had something to say to C4 and the Church? Everything is possible and God knows what will happen... "We wish to begin by renewing our absolute dedication and our unconditional love for the Chair of Peter and for Your august person, in whom we recognize the Successor of Peter and the Vicar of Jesus: the “sweet Christ on earth,” as Saint Catherine of Siena was fond of saying. We do not share in the slightest the position of those who consider the See of Peter vacant, nor of those who want to attribute to others (I discern this person is pope Benedict XVI) the indivisible responsibility of the Petrine munus. (see expanded Ministry from BXVI Feb 27, 2013 audience) " Blessings...
Uncle Joe
Rafał

You're gonna like this.