Cannoli:
To summarize: it is true that there is no salvation outside the church.
Lionel:
Are you trying to make me laugh here!
Right through out this thread and in other threads you are saying invincible ignorance etc are exceptions to the dogma EENS.
This is called hypocrisy.It is speaking through both sides of the mouth.
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However, the Spirit uses those “true particular churches” and “ecclesial communities” which are defective as a means of salvation.
Lionel:
In a hypothetical sense only. So this is not relevant to the dogma EENS as it was known to the 16th century missionaries.
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Because what goodness and truth they have is derived from the Catholic Church they may be regarded as real, but defective extensions of the boundaries of the Church.
Lionel:
Yes.This is good will with speculation. No problem here.
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As the Catechism says of our separated brethren:

All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”272

Lionel:They are our brothers in Our Lord Jesus just as much as a Catholic in mortal sin is still our brother in Lord Jesus. Both groups if they do not do something concrete are on the way to Hell.
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CCC - 847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
Lionel:
Those who through no fault of their own who do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart and moved by grace try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience and are saved or about to be saved OUR UNKNOWN TO US.
The reference to this in Vatican Council II was an error it should not have been mentioned. The error was picked up from the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 to the Archbishop of Boston relative to Fr. Leonard Feeney.
Imaginary cases cannot be inferred to be exceptions to the Feeneyite interpretation of the dogma EENS. This is what you are doing here.You are projecting an imaginary case as being objective. I see the same passage in CCC 847 and for me it is a reference to a harmless hypothetical case.

Cannoli:
Yet, you hold that even those who through no fault of their own (invincible ignorance) are condemned to hell by God.
Lionel:
I hold that we do not know of any case of invincible ignorance.So it is not an exception to the dogma EENS.You agreed with me here.
If someone is saved in invincible ignorance it would be followed with the baptism of water in the Catholic Church.
Any way you could not provide the name and any details of someone saved or about to be saved in invincible ignorance.So please do not mention this imaginary case of yours, which you and the other liberals repeat, as an exception to EENS.
______________________________

Hopefully you realize that God is an all knowing God and therefore He would have to have known that these people (all Jews, Adam and Eve, native native American Indians etc.) would never be members of the Catholic Church yet you would have this loving God (God is love) create them only then to condemn them all to hell regardless. This would be ridiculous.
Lionel:
God is a lving a God and he created all the angels. Yet you agree that there are some angels in Hell.
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Not only is your position ridiculous and illogical it is also contrary to the teaching authority of the magisterium thereby separating yourself from the Catholic Church to which you falsely claim to be a member.
Lionel:
I have cited here the three Church Councils which support me. I have also provided a list of popes who support me. You, Pope Francis and the other liberals have broken free from this magisterium and now want me to follow.
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Dominus Iesus clarifies that the fullness of Christ’s Church resides in the Catholic Church and other “true particular churches” and “ecclesial communities” are not only defective, but what good they have is derived from the fullness of truth in the Catholic Church. Nevertheless, the goodness and truth that are in those churches can bring individuals to salvation:
Lionel:
That the other religions can bring salvation is in inference.It is a personal interpretation of Dominus Iesus.
________________________________
Therefore, these separated Churches and communities as such, though we believe they suffer from defects, have by no means been deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church”.66
Lionel:
Yes hypothetically. In a vague sense.Not in any known particular case.
To infer that this is a reference to a known case, which contradicts the dogma EENS, is irrational, fantasy and heresy.
______________________________

The key phrase here is “the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation.” You have deliberately and repeatedly failed to grasp this concept.
Lionel:
I grasp it as being a reference to a hypothetical case or situation,something which would only be known to God.It is imaginary and not defacto.
Since it is not objectively known, for example in 2016, in particular cases it is irrelevant to EENS.
I do not mix up, in my thinking, what is subjective as being objective, what is hypothetical as being practical exceptions to EENS, what is invisible as being visible.
____________________________

I'm delighted to see you jump into the discussion, Ms. Lourdes. Stick around, you might learn something (the operative word is “might'). If you are able (highly doubtful at this point) perhaps you can write a paragraph or two of substance next time instead of a one line sarcastic remark. Incidentally, I'd much rather be a “good Protestant” than a lousy Catholic.

------------------------------------------------------------------

As for the other EENS obsessive nutcase on this thread, you are incorrigible. You fail to use the most basic common sense that you have been given in order to cling to your obsessive absurdity that an almighty God (an all knowing God of all things past, present and the future) creates beings for the expressed purpose of sending them to hell. Even a child would realize the foolishness in that.

As for the angels who were condemned, they were condemned through their own fault. If you read and believe the bible you would realize that they had sinned against God. Their sin was pride. You do know what pride is don't you, Pope Humility?

Yet, you hold that even those who through no fault of their own (invincible ignorance) are condemned to hell by God. Hopefully you realize that God is an all knowing God and therefore He would have to have known that these people (all Jews, Adam and Eve, native native American Indians etc.) would never be members of the Catholic Church yet you would have this loving God (God is love) create them only then to condemn them all to hell regardless. This would be ridiculous.

Not only is your position ridiculous and illogical it is also contrary to the teaching authority of the magisterium thereby separating yourself from the Catholic Church to which you falsely claim to be a member.

Dominus Iesus clarifies that the fullness of Christ’s Church resides in the Catholic Church and other “true particular churches” and “ecclesial communities” are not only defective, but what good they have is derived from the fullness of truth in the Catholic Church. Nevertheless, the goodness and truth that are in those churches can bring individuals to salvation:

Therefore, these separated Churches and communities as such, though we believe they suffer from defects, have by no means been deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church”.66

The key phrase here is “the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation.” You have deliberately and repeatedly failed to grasp this concept.

To summarize: it is true that there is no salvation outside the church. However, the Spirit uses those “true particular churches” and “ecclesial communities” which are defective as a means of salvation. Because what goodness and truth they have is derived from the Catholic Church they may be regarded as real, but defective extensions of the boundaries of the Church. As the Catechism says of our separated brethren:

All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”272

CCC - 847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

On Mission Sunday Pope Francis promoted the Masonic Christology approved also by Pope Benedict

On Mission Sunday Pope Francis promoted the Masonic Christology approved also by Pope Benedict.
It was similar to Dominus Iesus on 'the unicity of Jesus Christ' meaning it was sufficient to believe in Jesus for salvation, irrespective of the Christian denomination or Church.Pope Francis on Sunday also mentioned 'the absoluteness' of believing in Jesus.Words.He was promoting Jesus without the necessity of the Church. Also with the Cushingite theology which he uses there are known exceptions outside the Church. So it would mean that even a Muslim could remain in his religion and be saved by Jesus Christ.So there is salvation in other religions for him and the members of those religions do not need to convert into the Catholic Church.This is his convoluted theology,fantasy theology after he has rejected the dogma on exclusive salvation in the Catholic Church.
Both popes have eliminated the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus since allegedly there are known exceptions in the present times.
People in Heaven saved with the baptism of desire are invisible on earth, hypothetical cases are not hypothetical but objectively visible in 2016.This is the new fantasy theology.
Jesus says those who do not believe will be condemned(Mark 16:16) and all need the baptism of water for salvation(John 3:5).Scripture does not refer to a baptism of desire or being saved in ignorance.Yet with the new theology the popes have changed Jesus' teachings.
Last Sunday Pope Francis suggested that mission does not mean trying to convert.1It is as if all non Catholics are not oriented to Hell for him.He could judge exceptions to the dogmatic teaching.
These are all the Masonic doctrines being brought into the Church.
This cannot be contested by Catholic priests and nuns.Since the Jewish Left rabbis,will consider it Anti-Semitic.It is Anti-Semitic to affirm the traditional exclusivist ecclesiology.Since it indicates all present day Jews, like other non Catholics, are on the way to Hell.
So this new Christianity expressed by the pope on Sunday is acceptable to the Reformed Jewish rabbis, some of whom teach at pontifical universities in Rome and speak at catholic parishes.They are supported by the political and military power of the Jewish Left.-Lionel Andrades

Sunday, October 23, 2016 (Mission Sunday)
Pope Francis says mission does not mean trying to convert
eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/…/pope-francis-sa…

Sunday, October 23, 2016

Mission Sunday is being celebrated today without the traditional Feeneyite interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus
eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/…/mission-sunday-…

What of people who cannot, through no fault of their own, either know about or enter the Church? Can these people be saved? The answer is: yes. It is possible.

Let’s take all of the people, for example, who lived their lives on the North American continent in the 1450 years between the establishment of the Church by Christ in the Upper Room and the landing of Columbus in North America in 1492. How could a man born on the Great Plains in the 5th century, living his entire life 1000 years before any Christian steps foot on the same continent, making it a physical impossibility that he could have known of Christ, much less His Church, much less received baptism in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, be saved?

How could such a man, and billions of others like him over the centuries, possibly be not only saved, but saved IN THE CHURCH, outside of which there is no salvation according to the axiom? (see "EENS" below)

The answer is: The Natural Law. Christ judged the 5th century Plains Indian according to the Natural Law, which is indelibly inscribed on the heart of every human being by God.

Is it more difficult for those outside The Church? Of course. That is why the Church is a Gift from God, and the most obvious manifestation of His love for us, even above and beyond nature and the stars. The 5th century Plains Indian could not go to the sacrament of confession and hear the words:

God, the Father of mercies, through the death and resurrection of His Son has reconciled the world to Himself and sent the Holy Spirit among us for the forgiveness of sins; through the ministry of the Church may God give you pardon and peace, and I absolve you from your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. CCC-1449 -THE SEVEN SACRAMENTS OF THE CHURCH

But we Catholics CAN go to confession and we CAN hear those words, and our sins, venial and mortal, can be forgiven AT ANY TIME. The Catholic Church is a Gift from God.

And so that 5th century Plains Indian, if he lived his life in accord with the Natural Law, coupled with genuine invincible ignorance (due to physical location), made it through his Particular Judgment before Our Lord, is now far, far, far more Catholic than any of us. He knows the Mass better than the greatest liturgist alive today, because he is right there at the Altar, worshiping God in the perpetual sacrifice and immolation of the Lamb. He isn’t in some separate animist-pagan heaven.. He is in the one and only heaven that there is, which is indwelling in the only God there is, which is His Mystical Body and Bride, Church Triumphant, which is most certainly CATHOLIC, because what the word “catholic” means is “universal” or, perhaps more accurately, “on the whole”.

And so it follows from this that Our Good God has not created one single human being “damned”. It would be highly unfair, "illogical" and unloving if He did. Every one of us – and scientists today speculate that there have been roughly 110 billion human beings ever – and every person who ever will be, has been knit together, atom by atom, cell by cell, personally by God who provided and provides a means and path and grace sufficient for every one of us to make it to heaven.

Doesn’t this make sense? Doesn’t it just drip with integrity and logical coherence?

Does God love everyone? Yes. Does God love Christians more than He loves non-Christians? No. Does God love Christians to a different extent than He loves non-Christians? Yes. God loves everyone equally in that He is merciful to all.

All the above makes sense to everyone except the most obsessive EENS rigorist.

2 And He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. 1 John 2:2

I am a Catholic. If being a Catholic is being a fundamentalist then so am I.-Lionel Andrades
Talk is cheap. Merely saying it doesn't make it true.
Lionel:
Therefore, all must be converted to Him, made known by the Church's preaching, and all must be incorporated into Him by baptism and into the Church which is His body. For Christ Himself "by stressing in express language the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mark 16:16; John 3:5), at the same time confirmed the necessity of the Church, into which men enter by baptism, as by a door. Therefore those men cannot be saved, who though aware that God, through Jesus Christ founded the Church as something necessary, still do not wish to enter into it, or to persevere in it."-Ad Gentes 7, Vatican Council II

“There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)

“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)

“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)

These are some of the quotes to support my posiiton.Let's have your quotes to support your position.

It is ironic that precisely those who know their obligation to remain united to the Magisterium, and thus on whom this doctrine is morally binding, keep themselves from union with the Roman See on this point.
Lionel:
Here are the popes who have defended the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus without inferring like you ,EWTN ,Catholic Answers and the Jewish Left that there are known cases of the baptism of desire and there are physically visible cases on earth of people saved in invincible ignorance and without the baptism of water.

The Popes through the centuries have defended the doctrine “outside the Church there is no salvation.” Here is small reference of their teachings on the matter:

Ordinary Magisterium

Pope Pelagius II (A.D. 578 – 590): “Consider the fact that whoever has not been in the peace and unity of the Church cannot have the Lord. …Although given over to flames and fires, they burn, or, thrown to wild beasts, they lay down their lives, there will not be (for them) that crown of faith but the punishment of faithlessness. …Such a one can be slain, he cannot be crowned. …[If] slain outside the Church, he cannot attain the rewards of the Church.” (Denzinger 246-247)

Pope Saint Gregory the Great (A.D. 590 – 604): “Now the holy Church universal proclaims that God cannot be truly worshipped saving within herself, asserting that all they that are without her shall never be saved.” (Moralia)

Pope Saint Gregory the Great

Pope Innocent III (A.D. 1198 – 1216): “With our hearts we believe and with our lips we confess but one Church, not that of the heretics, but the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside which we believe that no one is saved.” (Denzinger 423)

Pope Leo XII (A.D. 1823 – 1829): “We profess that there is no salvation outside the Church. …For the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth. With reference to those words Augustine says: `If any man be outside the Church he will be excluded from the number of sons, and will not have God for Father since he has not the Church for mother.'” (Encyclical, Ubi Primum)

Pope Gregory XVI (A.D. 1831 – 1846): “It is not possible to worship God truly except in Her; all who are outside Her will not be saved.” (Encyclical, Summo Jugiter)

Pope Pius IX (A.D. 1846 – 1878): “It must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood.” (Denzinger 1647)

Pope Leo XIII (A.D. 1878 – 1903): “This is our last lesson to you; receive it, engrave it in your minds, all of you: by God’s commandment salvation is to be found nowhere but in the Church.” (Encyclical, Annum Ingressi Sumus)

“He scatters and gathers not who gathers not with the Church and with Jesus Christ, and all who fight not jointly with Him and with the Church are in very truth contending against God.” (Encyclical, Sapientiae Christianae)

Pope Saint Pius X (A.D. 1903 – 1914): “It is our duty to recall to everyone great and small, as the Holy Pontiff Gregory did in ages past, the absolute necessity which is ours, to have recourse to this Church to effect our eternal salvation.” (Encyclical, Jucunda Sane)

Pope Benedict XV (A.D. 1914 – 1922): “Such is the nature of the Catholic faith that it does not admit of more or less, but must be held as a whole, or as a whole rejected: This is the Catholic faith, which unless a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.” (Encyclical, Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum)

Pope Pius XI (A.D. 1922 – 1939): “The Catholic Church alone is keeping the true worship. This is the font of truth, this is the house of faith, this is the temple of God; if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation….Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ, no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors.” (Encyclical, Mortalium Animos)

Pope Pius XII (A.D. 1939 – 1958): “By divine mandate the interpreter and guardian of the Scriptures, and the depository of Sacred Tradition living within her, the Church alone is the entrance to salvation: She alone, by herself, and under the protection and guidance of the Holy Spirit, is the source of truth.” (Allocution to the Gregorian, October 17, 1953)

Extraordinary Magisterium

Then, as though to set this constant teaching of the Fathers, Doctors and Popes “in concrete,” so to speak, we have the following definitions from the Solemn Magisterium of the Church:

Pope Innocent III and Lateran Council IV (A.D. 1215): “One indeed is the universal Church of the faithful outside which no one at all is saved…”

Pope Boniface VIII in his Papal Bull Unam Sanctam (A.D. 1302): “We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.”

Pope Eugene IV and the Council of Florence (A.D. 1438 – 1445): “[The most Holy Roman Church] firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart `into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ (Matt. 25:41), unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

catholicism.org/eens-popes.html

I affirm the Syllabus of Errors,the Catechism of Pope Pius X and the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus (EENS)
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The rigorist position of Fr. Feeney (that all must be actual members of the Catholic Church to be saved - EENS) has been condemned by the Magisterium. It is ironic that precisely those who know their obligation to remain united to the Magisterium, and thus on whom this doctrine is morally binding, keep themselves from union with the Roman See on this point. --
Written by Colin B. Donovan, STL,
Vice President for Theology at EWTN. A layman, he has the Licentiate in Sacred Theology, with a specialization in moral theology, from the Pontifical University of St. Thomas Aquinas (Angelicum) in Rome.
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I am a Catholic. If being a Catholic is being a fundamentalist then so am I.-Lionel Andrades
Talk is cheap. Merely saying it doesn't make it true.

A morally binding doctrine which you categorically reject?

Guess where you're headed?

Possibly the next step is that those who are on the Torneilli's 'hit list' will face a new persecution.

I am a Catholic. If being a Catholic is being a fundamentalist then so am I

If they called me a fundamentalist I would say that it is true that I affirm the Syllabus of Errors,the Catechism of Pope Pius X and the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus (EENS)according to the 16th century missionaries but I also accept Vatican Council II, with all hypothetical cases being invisible and not explicit in 2016.So I affirm the Catholic Church's teachings before and after Vatican Council II, including the Catechism of the Catholic Church(1995),with no known exceptions to the old ecclesiology as it was known to St. Robert Bellarmine, St. Francis of Assisi and St. Francis Xavier.
I do not interpret magisterial documents with the Kasper-Lefebvre premise,which infers invisible cases are visible in 2016.I do not apply the Ratzinger-Rahner new theology to Vatican Council II which infers invisible cases of being saved in invincible ignorance(Lumen Gentium 16) are visible exceptions to Feeneyite EENS; to 'the rigorist interpretation' of the dogma on exclusive salvation in the Church.So with the old ecclesiology in place, for me, there is no change in the Church's old teachings on ecumenism(only of return) and no known salvation outside the Church in other religions.Since there is no salvation outside the visible Church, and all need to be incorporated as members I affirm the need for the Social Reign of Christ King and the non separation of Church and State.The inter-office Letter of the Holy Office to the Archbishop of Boston made an objective mistake when it assumed that the baptism of desire was explicit.It was Cardinal Richard Cushing who was in heresy for me and Fr.Leonard Feeney who was teaching orthodoxy.
So I differ from the liberals, traditionalists and sedevacantists who use the Kasper-Lefebvre new theology to interpret Vatican Council II etc.The liberals accept the irrational and heretical conclusion and the traditionalists reject it but both use the same new, irrational theology.
Like them all I do not use the irrational premise and so my conclusion is not non traditional and heretical like that of the present magisterium and the political Left.
I affirm Feeneyite EENS and implicit- for-us and known-only- to- God baptism of desire.So there is no violation of the Principle of Non Contradiction.

Someone allegedly saved with the baptism of desire and without the baptism of water in the Catholic Church in the past, cannot be a living exception to the dogma EENS in 2016.

If a liberal says he is a Catholic and accepts Vatican Council II with hypothetical cases being not hypothetical but objectively visible in 2016 , he differs from me.
If a traditionalist says he rejects Vatican Council II, with hypothetical cases being explicit, I would agree with him.I too reject this irrational Cushingite version of Vatican Council II.
However unlike the traditionalist, I accept Vatican Council II with hypothetical cases just being hypothetical.
I am a Catholic. If being a Catholic is being a fundamentalist then so am I.-Lionel Andrades

October 18, 2016

Vatican Council II is fundamentalist if you stay clear of the Kasper-Lefebvre theology.
eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/…/vatican-council…