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ACLumsden
@irenaeus - Quite!! God's love in Christ Jesus is for all. Does God have favourites, like we mere mortals do? I think not. This line of arguement is a projection of man's own psychological shortcomings.

Gregory - Indeed!

Rope - That is the literal Latin translation..... However, more pertinently, pro multis the theology of the term is more complex than just the textual words - the Greek scriptural import is more powerful which implies the following:

1. Since The Son was sent for the redemti… [More]
irenaeus
I am rather confused by this line of argument. Is it not obvious that all will not be saved... narrow gates, camel...eye of needle, etc

Secondly, is it not obvious that the Christ was the fullfillment of the Law.

In general, when a prophecy is fullfilled it cant be re-fullfilled. It is therefore no longer extant once fullfilled, and it no longer has any effect. The Jews were the Chosen people. If people want to argue they still are... then they are only such by historical title. But the … [More]
ACLumsden
I disagree Connoli. Your scholarship does not concurr with Dom Henri Wansborough (the editor in chief of the Jerusalem Bible) or of Fr Aidan Nichols (Biblical Scholar). The former is a Benedictine monk of Ampleforth Abbey and Lecturer in Classics at Oxford; the later is a Scripture Scholar at the Biblicum.

YOu are quite wrong. Sorry man, you just do not know enough.
ACLumsden
Cannoli - There is a distinct difference between Classical Latin and mediaeval Latin (which the Church has used for centuries) and even later Church Latin. For example, the word "Iucudare" found in the antiphons for advent, in Classical Latin was used by Virgil in the Aenid to describe the voice of Zeus; in mediaeval Latin it came to mean "Bawl out" or "shout with great joy!". HOwever, this word is used in another antiphon "Iucundare iugiter plebs devota debitis melos canens dulciter" and is … [More]
Holy Cannoli
Your Latin skills are now in question, have you a degree in Classical or Liturgical Latin?

Is a degree necessary to know that "pro multis" means "for many" and not "for all" as it is currently translated in the N. O. vernacular mass? If that's what you believe and if you have a degree in classical languages, I would suggest you get your money back from whatever institution literally stole your money and in exchange gave you little to show for it.

P.S. Do take care man, you are reverting to … [More]
ACLumsden
Cannoli: Your Latin skills are now in question, have you a degree in Classical or Liturgical Latin? If not, it is irresponsible scholarship to speak on these matters.

The next thing is that the issue is not modernism, we began to debate the validity of an adverse attitude to the Jewish race of peoples. I said that the theology of the Church has changed and that we are not condemning the old, but seeing it rather as a primitive starting point for theological development.

P.S. Do take care man,… [More]
Holy Cannoli
go back to the definitions of theology.

You go back to the definitions of modernism, its pervasiveness and the destruction it has caused within the Catholc Church.
www.newadvent.org/cathen/10415a.htm

the words of consecration are the same in all the Masses past and present:

Even a first year Latin student knows that "pro multis" does NOT mean "FOR ALL" as it is translated in the vernacular N.O. masses around the world except, to my understanding, in Poland which retains the correct form "… [More]
ACLumsden
Cannoli: Prayer and the way in which we approach God is part of the hermeneutics of theology - go back to the definitions of theology.

Oh by the way, the words of consecration are the same in all the Masses past and present:

"Hoc est enim corpus meum".......etc.... "Hic est enim calix sanguinis mei"...etc..... This is my body...... this is the chalice of my blood, etc.....

Do keep focused that man!
Holy Cannoli
I urge you to remember that Theology is not stagnant

And I urge you not to confuse Theology with moderism. Changing a prayer here or there, changing the words of consecretion, communion in the hand, women on the altar etc. is NOT theology. These are all symptoms of modernism including the directive NOT to evengelize Jews.

We'll likely be having steak tortas for lunch.

www.youtube.com/watch

ACLumsden
Tomas is still taught today in great deepth indeed; his philosophy (which is Aristotiliean) is a source of great wisdom indeed. HIs Dogmatic theology and his Systematic theology is quite impressive too.... One just has to read the Summa on the "Progression of the Son" to see this. However, because of the time interval of almost 800 years, we do need to interpret it when we Lecture on any of Tomas' works. Therefore, no one is maligning Tomas here.

Yet again, I urge you to remember that Theology… [More]
Holy Cannoli
ACL wrote:

Tomas is also a product of his time.

And you are NOT a product of YOUR time?

In your effort to support an indefensible postion you resort to maligning the Angleic Doctor who is still taught today in seminaries. An interesting obsession you have for the Jews that would lead you to such a bizzare belief.

Yet again, cannoli, you go into literature for which you do not have the educative foundations to read.

Judge not, little man. You don't know my educative foundations. However, … [More]
ACLumsden
Yet again Trady.....what on earth are you talking about?????? No one is speaking of the Biblical stories; my reference is to relics of the middle ages........

Huh?????????????????
ACLumsden
Nope... wrong again. In the official Liturgy for Good Friday, we see the change.

Now, theology can be defined in two ways:
1. On a Personal level - systematical analysis of how God has interacted with the individual on a personal level (hence the many, many tomes of 'theological reflection' by the Saints - all different, but all revealing some special aspect fo God).
2. On a general level - systematic analysis of how God has interacted with human beings as a whole.

The interaction between … [More]
Holy Cannoli
Holy MOther Church has done so.

You're not paying attention. You already acknowledged Irenaeus' post in that
I am not aware of any post vatican II document promulgated to the whole Church (from the Chair) that says we are not to evangelize Jews.

Yet you still write "Holy MOther Church has done so (changed it policy toward Jews)."

So too with theology as it develops.


This is NOT theology. This is modernism and has as much to do with theology as communion in the hand and we all know the … [More]
ACLumsden
As I have already said: theology is not stagnant, she develops as human beings develop - both as good people and as a result, in their relationship with God. This is no different with the Magisterium of the Church. Once it was thought that relic of "Gabriel's Wing" (a feather of an ostrich really...) was a real and that our Lady really spilt her breast milk resulting in a relic there. Of course, these are rediculous - but in their time both clergy and faithful were really inspired by it. Now … [More]
Holy Cannoli
Rope

Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius.



Holy Cannoli
The basic tenets of Christianity and the mandate of love is just bypassed by these chaps in favour of some of the most unchristian thinking I have ever come accross outside of the Lecture Hall. (And sometimes within it as well!) And they attempt to support it with Scripture and Church documents..... crazy really.

Do you want to know what is really crazy? What is really crazy is that in spite of direct quotes from saints, in spite of direct quotes from popes throughout the centuries and in … [More]
Holy Cannoli
@irenaeus

Word up!

It has just been burdened with bureaucratic niceties.

Absolutely true. The next question would be for what purpose have these “bureaucratic niceties” been proposed, by whom and when do we get rid of the bonehead clerics who proposed them? If, for no other reason, they are making the Catholic Church look like a mindless gathering of politically correct kumbaya singing simpletons to the “Bible Only Crowd” who ought to be our primary target for converions. It's bad enough … [More]
ACLumsden
@irenaeus - Indeed that man. Permit me to draw your attention to the other poster's proof: internet blogs, reported speech in articles, pre-councilior documents. Not one scrap of official promulgation from the Holy See. Sometimes I get gravely concerned that people get so inundated with conflicting information, without benefit of educated leadership, that they get lost in the heap.

The basic tenets of Christianity and the mandate of love is just bypassed by these chaps in favour of some of … [More]
irenaeus
I am not aware of any post vatican II document promulgated to the whole Church (from the Chair) that says we are not to evangelize Jews. Therefore the teaching has never changed. It has just been burdened with bureaucratic niceties.
If one truly believes in Christ and His Church, how can one deny the Truth to Jews? True love is found in the love of your neighbors soul. To deny them the Truth when they face Judgment, does not show any authentic love, but grievous sins of omission.
holyrope 3
Cannoli, if one cannot understand the clear, concise and documented writings and reasonings which you presented, which should not be difficult, by no means to the average person, than either they are not quite able to grasp the pertinancy of it even in these times, or they choose to remain obstinate in their own ignorance. Good job, my friend
ACLumsden
cannoli - If you listened to Mr Voris' video on the subject you would not be this confused.

Good night.

Holy Cannoli
ACL wrote:
This is a clear directive to evangelise and convert all men unto belief and faith in Jesus the Christ.

Perhaps, in your wisdom and obvious "evangelical virtue" you can explain how evangelization will be possible when the Catholic Church has specifically stated (post V-II, of course) that Jews are NOT to be targets for conversion since the "biblical covenant between Jews and God is valid and therefore Jews do not need to be saved through faith in Jesus"?

I'm not going to stay up … [More]
ACLumsden
Cannoli - Indeed however, the Gospel according to St John ends with the injuction to : "Go therefore and baptise all the nations in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit....etc." This is a clear directive to evangelise and convert all men unto belief and faith in Jesus the Christ. This includes the Jews who do not believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Messiah (note, not all of them are non-believers!). This has always been the Christian directive and the Roman catholic … [More]
Holy Cannoli
So, just read the prayers above again and you will see how the Church has developed

Nonsense. Those prayers are no more indicative of a development of “Truth” any more than communion in the hand is a development of "Truth.” Both are attempts by modernists who have chosen to abandon the traditional teachings of the Church, abandon the words of numerous saints and Supreme Pontiffs for a politically correct exercise in feel good hand-holding with those who despise Jesus the Christ and His Church. … [More]
ACLumsden
Ladies and Gentlemen: All you have quoted, all you have offered in support of your antiquated theology are pre-concilior. Here is the Liturgy for Good Friday - Solemn Prayers for the World:

"Let us Pray for the Jewish people,
the first to hear the word of God,
that they may continue to grow in the love of His name
and in faithfulness to His covenant."

Silence....

"Almighty and eternal God,
long ago you gave your promise to Abraham and his posterity,
Listen to your Church as we pray
that the … [More]
holyrope 3
St. Bernard of Clairvaux's critique of the Jews is the same as the Church's position, reiterated since Augustine and codified by Pope Gregory the Great in Sicut Judaeis non. Jews according to Catholic teaching, are carnal and blind. Not even the wonders Jesus performed could overcome their blindness.

St. Bernard notes:

" Not the flight of demons, nor the obedience of the elements, nor life restored to the dead, was able to expel from their minds that bestial stupidity, and more than bestial,…
[More]
holyrope 3
Taken From Their "Holy Book" the TALMUD:in which they believe and follow today.

Sanhedrin 58b. "If a heathen (Gentile) hits a Jew, the Gentile must be killed, hitting a Jew is the same as hitting God."

Sanhedrin 57a. "A Jew need not pay a Gentile (Cuthean) the wages owed him for work.

Abodah Zarah 22a-22b. Gentiles can't be trusted with cows because they do immoral things with them, and they sexually prefer the cattle of Israelites to their own wives.

Shabbath 116a. Jews should destroy … [More]
Holy Cannoli
Therefore to condemn the Jews in toto is quite contra evangeliam.This is also quite unchristian:

Who's condemning them, me? I merely posted quotes taken from numerous popes that speak to the Jews. If you wish to refer to these previous popes and saints as "quite unchristian" that would be on your head not mine.

As far as I know, the post VC-II modernists have not yet changed the gospels, have they? On second thought, they deliberatly mistranslated the Latin liturgy and have performed a … [More]
kfarley
Catholics are a continuation of Israel making us all Jews by default!
ACLumsden
If the pre-Vat II Popes adhere to this dislike of the Jews, and this Saint was pre-Vat II, it is logical to state that they are all of the same theological period in the church's history. Therefore, it is a peculiarity of that time; the modern Church has amended this. Therefore your first objection is a non-sequitur.

The second objection is a function of a bias for pre-Vat II theology; a thing which cannot coexist with the development of theology as taught by the Church today (per documenta). … [More]
Holy Cannoli
I meant that his dislike for the Jews is a peculiarity of his time and theology therein.

To explain his sentiments as being a "Pecuilarity of his time" is false and the long list of quotes spanning centuries of Catholic popes proves it.

The same church of which you have said (regarding the birthday of Our Lady) we must submit to, has rejected this stance - as we see in the Good Friday Liturgical Solemn Prayers.

The celebration of Our Lady's birthdate is held by the Universal Church. To not … [More]
ACLumsden
Nope... that is not what I meant. I meant that his dislike for the Jews is a peculiarity of his time and theology therein. The same church of which you have said (regarding the birthday of Our Lady) we must submit to, has rejected this stance - as we see in the Good Friday Liturgical Solemn Prayers.
Holy Cannoli
Note ACL, you wrote:

I would respect him as such, but deem his dislike for the Jews as particular to his time and therefore needs to be overlooked. Not emphasised.

Your claim that "his (St. John's) dislike for the Jews as particular to his time" is demonstrably false and the long list of quotes prove it.

This stance against the Jews has been rejected.

I see. So, those popes who felt otherwise were mistaken and those who reject the former stance are now correct? I wonder if political … [More]
ACLumsden
Note cannoli, that that link directs one to Papal quotes far removed from our time. Do Popes John XXIII, Paul VI, JPII and Benedict XVI agree with this? As I said, just look at the new Good Friday Liturgy and the Solemn Prayers therein. This stance against the Jews has been rejected. We now pray for them to recognise the Saviour, the Messiah as Jesus Christ.
Holy Cannoli
This is quite childish indeed.....the dislike of an entire race of people on account of their role in our salvation history.

Is that really the reason?

Therefore, even though this is a genuine Saint of the Roman Church, I would respect him as such, but deem his dislike for the Jews as particular to his time and therefore needs to be overlooked. Not emphasised.

Particular for his time?
www.romancatholicism.org/popes-jews.htm



The linked site is from a site that advocates Sedevaca… [More]
ACLumsden
Do remember Rope, that Holy Mother Church is the authority here, not the Saint. She is perfect in her Depositum Fidei unlike the perculiarities of a Saint.
holyrope 3
I'll go with the "private stance" of a saint, before heeding the writings of some people here.
ACLumsden
This was Padre Pio's private stance on the matter and quite temporaly conditioned indeed. Does Our Lord offer salvation to one and not another? No. Salvation is open unto all - even those who do not yet believe in Him. This is the God of infinte Love of whom Jesus the Christ laboured to show the world. Not a vengeful God....this is quite antiquated theology.
holyrope 3
PADRE PIO, THE TRUE STORY...Book written by: Bernard Ruffin

Page 417:
"I remember when an American Jewish doctor from Shreveport, Louisiana came to treat Padre Pio, who was sick at the time. The doctor advised him to take a rest for eight days. Of course Padre Pio didn't take his advice; he remarked on how nice he was but said to me after the doctor left, "What a pity he is a Jew."

Sometimes, you'll find a person, say in a restaurant, for example and always thinking to be ahead of the game, … [More]
ACLumsden
This is quite childish indeed.....the dislike of an entire race of people on account of their role in our salvation history. Do recall that the sins of the Fathers NO LONGER affect the sons, Christ saw to the abandonment of this law. Thank God that Holy Mother Church has developed and matured since this Saint..... Notice that the Solemn Prayers at the Good Friday Liturgy are no longer comdemnatory of the Jews. They played their part on the stage of our salvation history. If it weren't for them,… [More]
holyrope 3
St. John of Capistrano felt that Jews, because of their rejection of Christ, and not because of their race, were a constant danger to any Christian society. His thought paralleled the thinking of popes as expressed in "Sicut iudeis non." Capistrano felt that the jew could be tolerated but certainly not privileged. According to Hofer, Capistrano's attitude was a function of his idea that the Christian state served as "the Christian empire of God here on earth." According to Capistrano's idea, "… [More]