My piece from January, If Any Drug Tested on HEK-293 Is Immoral, Goodbye Modern Medicine, continues to be widely viewed, averaging over 1000 views a day in the past month. This has lead to several people writing critiques of the piece. However, most of the critiques miss the point. Two recent pieces (that came out while I was in meetings then on retreat earlier this month) repeated arguments I …More
My piece from January, If Any Drug Tested on HEK-293 Is Immoral, Goodbye Modern Medicine, continues to be widely viewed, averaging over 1000 views a day in the past month. This has lead to several people writing critiques of the piece. However, most of the critiques miss the point. Two recent pieces (that came out while I was in meetings then on retreat earlier this month) repeated arguments I had already dealt with and miss the point. The authors also did not examine other things I've written on vaccines (easy to find via tags on here) as I had already responded (so most of this will be quoting stuff I already wrote).

The point they miss is: the remote cooperation we are dealing with for Moderna or Pfizer vaccines is so remote that it is almost completely irrelevant in the choice to vaccinate or not.
patheos.com

Missing the Point about Remote Cooperation / Appropriation

Missing the Point about Remote Cooperation / Appropriation September 17, 2021 Fr. Matthew P. Schneider, LC My piece from January, If Any Drug …
GaryLockhart
Fr Matthew P Schneider LC
He wrote a piece back in May which I responded to. This seems like an extension of the May piece without considering the partial acceptance and critique I offered of his view. patheos.com/…vaccine-catholics-break-moral-theology-principles/
Facts Not Lies
Due to having 2 options (neither are legal, constitutional, nor moral) I had to get stabbed and have foreign chemicals forced into my body (under duress) . I had to do this or my options were a) unemployment b) accept the abuse of untested chemicals forced into my body.
Welcome to todays society where perfectly healthy people are forced to take untested and unneeded drugs because the media and …More
Due to having 2 options (neither are legal, constitutional, nor moral) I had to get stabbed and have foreign chemicals forced into my body (under duress) . I had to do this or my options were a) unemployment b) accept the abuse of untested chemicals forced into my body.

Welcome to todays society where perfectly healthy people are forced to take untested and unneeded drugs because the media and government (mostly ignorance in the masses not asking for real proof and peer pressure before asserting).

Wish me well when cold season comes around... I may actually GET a cold for the first time in decades.

I chose the J&J snake oil... it appears to be the results of many of the past 50 years of study of Corona viruses rather than the other 2 which are a decade of study generalize of DNA manipulation. It appears to address the cold using traditional mechanisms. Not try to 'dumb down' our bodies and prevent the body to do what has kept our race alive for millennia.

No, I am no antivaxer (a term which existed prior to 2019). I am an anti human guinea pig and anti forced drug use for a cold with an insignificant death rate.
Servant Of Divine Mercy
I'm not selling anything, you should know by now what I'm all about with my posts. PRO LIFE and OBEY God's True Magisterium in Faith and Morals.
Some Guy
Many of those medications were developed and in use long before HEK-293 even existed. The claim "If Any Drug Tested on HEK-293 Is Immoral, Goodbye Modern Medicine" doesn't address the distinction that testing on HEK-293 as part of a medicine's development is a closer connection than testing some years later (possibly by another party).
HEK-293 was obtained in 1973 and published in 1977. Compare …More
Many of those medications were developed and in use long before HEK-293 even existed. The claim "If Any Drug Tested on HEK-293 Is Immoral, Goodbye Modern Medicine" doesn't address the distinction that testing on HEK-293 as part of a medicine's development is a closer connection than testing some years later (possibly by another party).

HEK-293 was obtained in 1973 and published in 1977. Compare that to when medications on this list became available for medical use (I only looked up the first 10 over-the-counter medicines: 8 of which were available for medical use before HEK-293 even existed):

Acetaminophen (1950s)
Ibuprofen (1960s)
Asprin (pre-1900)
Pseudoephedrine (late 1800s)
Diphenhydramine (1940s)
Dextromethorphan (1950s)
Guaifenesin (FDA approved 1952)
Calcium Carbonate (medical use in early 1900s)
Fr Matthew P Schneider LC
Read the link
Servant Of Divine Mercy
Proverbs Ch6 v
16
There are six things the LORD hates,
yes, sevenusccb.org/bible/proverbs/6 are an abomination to him;
v17
usccb.org/bible/proverbs/6 Haughty eyes, a lying tongue,
hands that shed innocent blood, (how can a remote participation or procedure of abortion compromise this verse)
v18
A heart that plots wicked schemes,
feet that are quick to run to evil,
v19
The false witness who utters …More
Proverbs Ch6 v
16

There are six things the LORD hates,

yes, sevenusccb.org/bible/proverbs/6 are an abomination to him;

v17

usccb.org/bible/proverbs/6 Haughty eyes, a lying tongue,

hands that shed innocent blood, (how can a remote participation or procedure of abortion compromise this verse)

v18

A heart that plots wicked schemes,

feet that are quick to run to evil,

v19

The false witness who utters lies,

and the one who sows discord among kindred.
Fr Matthew P Schneider LC
So you are selling the device you wrote this on and never going online again? Any device capable of posting this comment is astronomically more cooperation in evil than these vaccines.
Servant Of Divine Mercy
I'm not selling anything, you should know by now what I'm all about with my posts. PRO LIFE and OBEY God's True Magisterium in Faith and Morals.
Fr Matthew P Schneider LC
Well then you are swallowing a camel while straining a gnat. That device cooperates in abortion millions of times more than a COIVD vaccine.
If you obey God's magisterium, that would be the CDF who has said these vaccines are ethical.More
Well then you are swallowing a camel while straining a gnat. That device cooperates in abortion millions of times more than a COIVD vaccine.

If you obey God's magisterium, that would be the CDF who has said these vaccines are ethical.
Servant Of Divine Mercy
Which device are you referring to?
Fr Matthew P Schneider LC
The device you are posting on here using. It is impossible to use any device that can access this site while claiming it is immoral to do something that's thousands to billions of times more remote cooperation in evil than the device used to post online.
Servant Of Divine Mercy
Please be pro life and faithful to the Gospel Teachings and Commandments concerning love of neighbour (innocent babies being tortured for vaccines is not love of neighbour). Ask for Wisdom in earnest and it will be given to you. God bless
Fr Matthew P Schneider LC
Exactly zero babies were tortured for the COVID vaccines. Many babies are tortured through forced abortions in China every day and buying a device with Chinese-made parts, you are contributing to that WAY more than getting a vaccine tested on a fetal cell line contributes to abortion.
Servant Of Divine Mercy
You literally mean by a mobile phone or computer?
Servant Of Divine Mercy
All abortion is wrong even if babies weren't tortured, even if used for research, the slightest research, test or procedure is an abomination even if the babies weren't tortured. All covid and Flu vaccines are abortion-tained, in fact according to Dr Robert O Young all vaccines are abortion-tained and toxic.
Fr Matthew P Schneider LC
Yes, you cannot consistently use a phone computer or tablet while objecting to this degree of extremely-remote cooperation.
Now you are making claims where you could not participate in society at all: the connection with flu or many other vaccines is so remote that you can't use anything produced by almost any government (like roads or sidewalks) or produced by anyone paying taxes to the government …More
Yes, you cannot consistently use a phone computer or tablet while objecting to this degree of extremely-remote cooperation.

Now you are making claims where you could not participate in society at all: the connection with flu or many other vaccines is so remote that you can't use anything produced by almost any government (like roads or sidewalks) or produced by anyone paying taxes to the government (like anything you can buy in any store in the USA). You would essentially need to be a completely off-grid subsistence farmer or hunter-gatherer making every tool you use from raw materials.
Servant Of Divine Mercy
In other words like St John the Baptist living totally in the wilderness.
Fr Matthew P Schneider LC
Yes. Catholicism has offered that as an option and a few took it, but has never made it requirement. You can't consistently write online about it though.
Ultraviolet
@Fr Mattehw P Schneider LC "Yes, you cannot consistently use a phone computer or tablet while objecting to this degree of extremely-remote cooperation."
...please provide examples where the software, materials or manufacturing for " a phone, computer, or tablet" is derived from aborted infants.More
@Fr Mattehw P Schneider LC "Yes, you cannot consistently use a phone computer or tablet while objecting to this degree of extremely-remote cooperation."

...please provide examples where the software, materials or manufacturing for " a phone, computer, or tablet" is derived from aborted infants.
Fr Matthew P Schneider LC
Every one has parts made in China. That funds Chinese forced abortion thus cooperating in abortion at a rate hundreds of thousands to billions of times as much as using a vaccine that was tested on a fetal cell line does. patheos.com/…antifying-cooperation-in-or-appropriation-of-evil/
Ultraviolet
"Every one has parts made in China." @Fr Matthew P Schneider LC
Please list which Chinese-made parts are derived from aborted infants. i.e. which parts require aborted infants as a raw material or require aborted infants as a necessary component in their manufacturing.
I'm not being snide, Father.
If you can't, then you've made a classic post-hoc fallacy. Communist China's "One Child Policy" was …More
"Every one has parts made in China." @Fr Matthew P Schneider LC

Please list which Chinese-made parts are derived from aborted infants. i.e. which parts require aborted infants as a raw material or require aborted infants as a necessary component in their manufacturing.

I'm not being snide, Father.

If you can't, then you've made a classic post-hoc fallacy. Communist China's "One Child Policy" was already in place -before- a.) the growing ownership of personal computers in the mid 80s and b.) the massive relocation of manufacturing, first from the USA to Japan/ Taiwan and then to the more-competitive China during the 90s..

Additionally, consumers are not responsible for what the Chinese do with their funds AFTER a legitimate transaction.

Here's a simple example. If I pay you for a book, that's a lawful and moral transaction. I have not purchased anything contrarty to Catholic teachings.

My money was lawfully earned, the book I bought from you was a good one (and probably printed by the Benziger Brothers, :D) That's the end of our transaction and my legal claim over those funds.

If, after our sale is concluded, you take the proceeds and buy drugs, then your transaction would be contrary to Catholic teachings. I have no moral right to dictate what you do with the money you earned lawfully..

Western electronic components are not made using aborted infants as a raw material and they do not need aborted infants to be manufactured. The same can not be said of the more popular Covid vaccines.

That's an aspect of the discussion I will leave in the capable hands of @The New Knights Templar and @Ave Crux
Fr Matthew P Schneider LC
Cooperation in evil is about causing or helping to cause, even in the slightest way current or future evil acts. Funding Chinese forced abortions does than FAR more than using a drug that was tested on a cell line that originated from a fetal corpse who was probably aborted.
The casual chain, not the physical chain is what is important for moral analysis .(Otherwise the US would need to hand most …More
Cooperation in evil is about causing or helping to cause, even in the slightest way current or future evil acts. Funding Chinese forced abortions does than FAR more than using a drug that was tested on a cell line that originated from a fetal corpse who was probably aborted.

The casual chain, not the physical chain is what is important for moral analysis .(Otherwise the US would need to hand most land back to native tribes.)
Ultraviolet
"Cooperation in evil is about causing or helping to cause, even in the slightest way current or future evil acts."
Buying electronic components does not cause future evil acts. Those are caused by the perpetrator.
"Funding Chinese forced abortions does..."
Again, GTV's users are not funding abortions. They're buying consumer goods from manufacturers who purchased electronic components. Those …More
"Cooperation in evil is about causing or helping to cause, even in the slightest way current or future evil acts."

Buying electronic components does not cause future evil acts. Those are caused by the perpetrator.

"Funding Chinese forced abortions does..."

Again, GTV's users are not funding abortions. They're buying consumer goods from manufacturers who purchased electronic components. Those manufacturers did not fund abortions. They bought electronic components.

The Chinese then misused the funds afterwards. That fault is theirs, not the manufacturers or the end consumers.

"The casual chain, not the physical chain is what is important for moral analysis ."

I suspect you meant to write "causal chain", but I understand what you meant. A buyer of goods has no moral claim on or moral right to dictate how the seller chooses to spend the funds earned after a transaction.

Your causal chain would apply if you could show Chinese government abortions caused these electronic components to be manufactured or were involved in their manufacture in some way. They aren't.

To give another example. Suppose a man buys a bottle of whiskey, drives drunk, and kills someone. Happens often enough.

The victim's relatives can't sue Jack Daniels and Ford for causing the misuse of their products AFTER a legal transaction. The buyer misused a legitimate product AFTER the sale. This is why the "causal chain" reasoning does not apply here.
Darice Henriques
Fr Schneider, in your description you used the words 'choice to vaccinate or not.' If you accept that vaccination is a choice, then it is no longer a necessity. The rest of the pre-conditions for taking such a vaccine do not apply in that case. To convince people, you need to prove the CDF pre-conditions exist. I mean things like there is grave necessity, the benefits must outweigh the risks, one …More
Fr Schneider, in your description you used the words 'choice to vaccinate or not.' If you accept that vaccination is a choice, then it is no longer a necessity. The rest of the pre-conditions for taking such a vaccine do not apply in that case. To convince people, you need to prove the CDF pre-conditions exist. I mean things like there is grave necessity, the benefits must outweigh the risks, one must nevertheless continue to advocate for vaccines not associated with abortion. The efficacy of the vaccines versus the long term effects are unknown right now and these fall under the domain of medical experts, researchers, scientists etc, not priests and bishops.

For the record, there are Covid19 vaccines available in the world that have not been developed using aborted fetal cells, have not been tested on aborted fetal cells and have not been produced in aborted fetal cells (as on date). I know this because one of these (Covaxin) is approved in my country as an option. When such an option exists in my country, why can't other countries also have this option? Surely there is no need to advocate and promote abortion-tainted vaccines when other morally acceptable vaccines are available?
Fr Matthew P Schneider LC
A choice can have an obviously right option. One has the choice to beat up the cashier next time you go to the grocery store but I presume 99.999% of eople would agree that's a wrong choice.
Darice Henriques
So you are saying that taking this abortion tainted jab is the right choice even though:
1) Other vaccines for the same purpose exist which are not abortion tainted? And other medical treatments exist. Note that the vaccines themselves are not preventive, all they claim to do is reduce your risk of dying if you do get the virus. But other medical treatments exist that claim to the same, because …More
So you are saying that taking this abortion tainted jab is the right choice even though:

1) Other vaccines for the same purpose exist which are not abortion tainted? And other medical treatments exist. Note that the vaccines themselves are not preventive, all they claim to do is reduce your risk of dying if you do get the virus. But other medical treatments exist that claim to the same, because these were used prior to introduction of the vaccine. I fail to see how the abortion tainted vaccines are the right option here.

2) The harmful effects of the vaccine in the short term and long term are not known (well, for the sake of the argument let's assume they are not known). So it is possible that they may do more harm than good.

3) It is not known if the benefits outweigh the risks because it is now evident that some of those who are vaccinated are anyway getting infected and they say that one needs boosters for some of the variants. In any case, we do not see the Church promoting vaccines for other diseases. Why only this vaccine?
Fr Matthew P Schneider LC
To call this vaccine "abortion-tainted" the device you posted this on is "genocide-tainted, abortion-tainted, slavery-tainted, and phonography-tainted." (genocide &abortion: China; slavery: rare earthmetals; pronogrpahy: lead the curve with several technological developments in your device.)
So on your genocide-tainted, abortion-tainted, slavery-tainted, and phonography-tainted device you decide …More
To call this vaccine "abortion-tainted" the device you posted this on is "genocide-tainted, abortion-tainted, slavery-tainted, and phonography-tainted." (genocide &abortion: China; slavery: rare earthmetals; pronogrpahy: lead the curve with several technological developments in your device.)

So on your genocide-tainted, abortion-tainted, slavery-tainted, and phonography-tainted device you decide to make a untrue statement: "The harmful effects of the vaccine in the short term and long term are not known." SHort term we have hundred of millions of cases to work with. Long-term, we have a pretty good idea as the vast vast majority long term effects would show up within a few months and we have tens of millions with 6+ months since vaccination.

Then on your genocide-tainted, abortion-tainted, slavery-tainted, and phonography-tainted device you decide to make another untrue statement: "we do not see the Church promoting vaccines for other diseases." Here's Pope Francis catholicherald.co.uk/…ope-francis-visits-mexico-city-childrens-hospital/
Plus we have Poeps back since the 1700s stating how vaccines are good and not one ever suggesting against vaccination. And we have Catholic hospitals promoting vaccinations, etc. Maybe you just missed that.
Darice Henriques
Well you accuse me of untruths. You do not know which device I am posting on so you cannot make untrue statements. My country has fought a war against China and has an ongoing border dispute. Sellers here, including Amazon are required to disclose the country of origin. As I said, there are other Covid 19 vaccines in the world that do NOT have an association with abortion. Why not promote those …More
Well you accuse me of untruths. You do not know which device I am posting on so you cannot make untrue statements. My country has fought a war against China and has an ongoing border dispute. Sellers here, including Amazon are required to disclose the country of origin. As I said, there are other Covid 19 vaccines in the world that do NOT have an association with abortion. Why not promote those vaccines? The link you posted does not work but I googled it. Giving a single child the polio vaccine during a visit to a children's hospital where the primary purpose of the visit was not to promote vaccine can hardly be called promoting other vaccines. When we say the Church, we mean clergy. Catholic hospitals can promote any vaccine just as they can promote any medical treatment that they offer as part of their services. In this case dioceses, bishops, priests, bishop conferences have been encouraging priests to take these vaccines. Where I live, parishes have organised vaccination drives/camps on their premises. I have not said the Church is against vaccines. For the record, I have already taken the Covid vaccine which has no association with abortion so I am not anti-vaxx.
Since you do know the short term and long term effects, please provide links. Having a good idea is not enough.
Fr Matthew P Schneider LC
I know of no device that could bring up this website that does not have all of those connections. If you can find one, please show me, but no major phone, tablet, or PC made in the past 10-15 years is free from being genocide-tainted, abortion-tainted, slavery-tainted, and phonography-tainted to a degree similar or substantially more than this vaccine is abortion-tainted.
Fr Matthew P Schneider LC
Another link to a story about the event where Pope Francis personally administered a dose of the oral polio vaccine. religionnews.com/…rs-kindness-therapy-at-mexican-childrens-hospital/
Servant Of Divine Mercy
Fr Matthew P Schneider LC
What matters is THIS vaccine. avoiding all vaccines as some other vaccine involved something unethical is like avoiding Coke because Pepsi did something immoral.
Servant Of Divine Mercy
Check the many links from this LifeSiteNews link as it might help clarify things: lifesitenews.com/vaccines/vaccines-from-aborted-fetal-cells/
Fr Matthew P Schneider LC
LifeSite has decided to make itself an unreliable source on vaccines by using someone who thinks we'd be better off without a polio & smallpox vaccines as their primary expert. Look at question 1 here: onepeterfive.com/…stions-to-all-those-holding-the-anti-vax-position/
123jussi
I agree that remoteness makes it licit under certain circumstances where grave harm is avoided. With the covid jab the conditions as specified by the Vatican do not exist
Fr Matthew P Schneider LC
The certain is is basically ALL as it is so remote that it is licit for event he most minor point. Like it is licit to not even check where some $10 item is made before buying it and based on where it's made, that could be millions of times the cooperation of a COVID vaccine. patheos.com/…antifying-cooperation-in-or-appropriation-of-evil/
123jussi
As they use to say in polite company "bolder dash"!
Fr Matthew P Schneider LC
Prove it. I provide math sources, etc. above. I've seen make claims it's false but I am yet to see one point to significant logical or factual issues with it. (I admit I may be off by a bit as certain points are rough estimates, but when I'm getting 1 cent spent on Chinese goods equivalent to 378,000 COVID vaccines, I need to be off by many orders of magnitude for the point to be false.)
Servant Of Divine Mercy
In the end, abortion is abortion and participation in it is participation in abortion even remotely.
Servant Of Divine Mercy
Jesus said (I paraphrase) that not even the least letter of the law is to be abolished. There is no compromise with the True Magisterium of the Catholic and Apostolic Church, Commandments, Gospel, Sacraments and in Faith and Morals. Anyone that compromises will answer to the only God Who will soon Judge the living and the dead and Woe to anyone who teaches and leads others against the Teachings of …More
Jesus said (I paraphrase) that not even the least letter of the law is to be abolished. There is no compromise with the True Magisterium of the Catholic and Apostolic Church, Commandments, Gospel, Sacraments and in Faith and Morals. Anyone that compromises will answer to the only God Who will soon Judge the living and the dead and Woe to anyone who teaches and leads others against the Teachings of Our Lord and His True Magisterium which can never be watered down, modernised or remote!
One more comment from Servant Of Divine Mercy
Servant Of Divine Mercy
God always provides other ways and means for example Ivermectin, if one can not obtain it then the remedies of vitamins C and D, Quercetin, Zinc and N-acetylcysteine (NAC), Hydroxychloroquine (Dr Mercola says Zinc and Quercetin is similarly equivalent to it), Budesonude, will do the cure, prevention and treatment according to countless world scientists and physicians as proof with results on their …More
God always provides other ways and means for example Ivermectin, if one can not obtain it then the remedies of vitamins C and D, Quercetin, Zinc and N-acetylcysteine (NAC), Hydroxychloroquine (Dr Mercola says Zinc and Quercetin is similarly equivalent to it), Budesonude, will do the cure, prevention and treatment according to countless world scientists and physicians as proof with results on their patients.
John A Cassani
What would be so bad about saying goodbye to modern medicine?
Hugh N. Cry
Keep telling yourself that son of Maciel. The problem is you are perpetuating the use of aborted babies.