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Answer to Viganò? Bishop Schneider Presents His Theses on Vatican II

Bishop Athanasius Schneider wrote on 24 June that Vatican II needs corrections and explained where and why.

This text reads like an answer to Archbishop Viganò’s demand that Vatican II be discarded altogether.

Schneider stresses that one can criticise or correct a council. Pius XII for instance declared in 1947 that only the imposition of the hands and the prayer of consecration are necessary for the validity of the Sacrament of Orders. He thus contradicted the Council of Florence, according to which the handing over of the chalice also belongs to the matter of this sacrament.

Eugene IV (1446) and Vatican I (1870) condemned the decree "Frequens" of the Council of Constance, which had been confirmed by Martin V in 1425, according to which a council stands above the Pope.

Schneider wants therefore to correct the following problems at Vatican II:

- the assertion that religious freedom is a right willed by God to practice even a false religion;

- the assertion that one can distinguish between the Church of Christ and the Catholic Church so that the former would “subsist” ("subsistit in”) in the latter;

- the attitude of the Council towards non-Christian religions and the world.

Schneider emphasizes that Vatican II expressly didn't want to present infallible teachings, saw itself as a pastoral council, and was not clear. He proves this with Paul VI who felt the need to publish an explanatory note on Lumen Gentium.

Schneider describes the history of Vatican II's impact as "catastrophic". He praises the founder of the Fraternity of St Pius X, Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre who strongly criticised Vatican II and compares his frankness with that of some great Fathers of the Church.

Schneider criticises the development even before Vatican II. With Benedict XV (+1922) began an infiltration of the bishops with a secular and modernist spirit which kept growing up to the Council.

Also John XXII (+1963) whom Schneider does not consider a modernist, showed an inferiority complex toward the world, but "certainly" had good intentions, Schneider believes.

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en.news mentioned this post in De Mattei Calls For Revising Vatican II
F M Shyanguya mentioned this post in [Ed. Sa 6/27] Bp Schneider, who has defended the Church and her Teaching bravely during this pontif…
tbswv
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Where were you clerics (Vigano) when you were present at VII Council. Your mea culpas are meaningless now. You were "duped" because you had no backbone. None of you stood with Archbishop Lefevre when he rejected it. It amazes me that no bishop opposed the radical changes to the Roman liturgy.
iwirawan
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Nah! Just scrap it. Just look at the fruit, nothing else to say.
gloveraa
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Sorry Bishop Schneider: John XXIII was a Freemason. Critique of Vigano disregarded
eticacasanova
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There are other problems in the Council's documents, nevertheless. Especially in the Dignitatis Humanae and the Nostra Aetate. You can conceive some type of constructive relation towards other people, but not in the way this problematic documents treat the issue, as if there is no need for Christ, as if there is no inspiration of the Spirit, as if there is no beed of the Cross and the Resurrectio…More
There are other problems in the Council's documents, nevertheless. Especially in the Dignitatis Humanae and the Nostra Aetate. You can conceive some type of constructive relation towards other people, but not in the way this problematic documents treat the issue, as if there is no need for Christ, as if there is no inspiration of the Spirit, as if there is no beed of the Cross and the Resurrection, etc. As if there is no enemies of the Church and Christ as if Christians had to give up.the hood fight...
eticacasanova
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The point of the Lumen Gentium about the Kingdom of Christ, that, according to LG, on earth SUBSISTS in the Catholic Church: it is true that many understand that as to mean that there is a difference between the Church and the Kingdom. I don't think so: I subsist in myself, I am a substance, something that is IN and BY himself. So, if you are a metaphysical dualist, you understand that as …More
The point of the Lumen Gentium about the Kingdom of Christ, that, according to LG, on earth SUBSISTS in the Catholic Church: it is true that many understand that as to mean that there is a difference between the Church and the Kingdom. I don't think so: I subsist in myself, I am a substance, something that is IN and BY himself. So, if you are a metaphysical dualist, you understand that as meaning that there are two things, the consciusness and the body, a la Descartes. If you comprehend reality as it is, like Saint Thomas and Aristotle, the problem disappears.
F M Shyanguya
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See this comment of mine here:
eticacasanova
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Well the freedom of religion thing is complicated, VERY COMPLICATED. What, are you about to going to India and tell the folk there that they have no right to be hindus or to the US and say that pluralism is, from now on, cancelled? Or, from another perspective: when did conversion to the Catholic Faith became mandatory and enforceable by arms? Or when did the right to search and pursue the truth …More
Well the freedom of religion thing is complicated, VERY COMPLICATED. What, are you about to going to India and tell the folk there that they have no right to be hindus or to the US and say that pluralism is, from now on, cancelled? Or, from another perspective: when did conversion to the Catholic Faith became mandatory and enforceable by arms? Or when did the right to search and pursue the truth became ilegitimate? Unfortunately, monsignior doesn't know much about philosophy, if he did, he would know, as Saint Thomas and Saint Paul, that you can know GOD with your natural reason, so you can be "the law for your self, when you uphold the law", because it's also natural. So, when you read that pagan religions are of the devil, that has to be understood in context: all religions have elements of truth, since truth is adequatio intellectus ad rem. The problem is that the devil seizes our ignorance, weakness of intellect and wickedness of apetites due to original sin. So, religions are good and are a testimony of the natural inclination of man towards God, that the Author of nature wrote in our being.... So, I could keep writing but I hope you get the point. There is only one religion founded by God as the way to Salvation, there is only one Mediator between God and man, but the others have rights to get to that faith freely, and in their own way, that is the one the Spirit points...
F M Shyanguya
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Wow! Very deep .., 👍👍👍👍👍👏👏👏👏👏
eticacasanova
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@F M Shyanguya I read the document, It's pretty good. I'm glad it exists, it's exhausting, some times, to try to explain these things to certain types of peoples. Thank you!
F M Shyanguya
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@eticacasanova Adding to your [freedom of] religion comment, looking at human history, and one can quickly see that religion is ubiquitous and sown into the very fabric of society.

Therefore, it wasn’t separation of Religion and State but of Church and State. It was all about getting rid of true religion and replacing it with the enemy’s, and the faithful never caught on to that and in fact,…More
@eticacasanova Adding to your [freedom of] religion comment, looking at human history, and one can quickly see that religion is ubiquitous and sown into the very fabric of society.

Therefore, it wasn’t separation of Religion and State but of Church and State. It was all about getting rid of true religion and replacing it with the enemy’s, and the faithful never caught on to that and in fact, many supported, to our destruction.

*****

The face of the religion, now fallen, sown + woven into the fabric of American society:
eticacasanova
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Yeah, every single society in history, civilized, barbarian or whatever, has been born out of a religion and social crises are crises of meaning, of religion. This deal of the "separation of ..." is sick and antisocial... It is unique in history and is possible only for the mysterium iniquitatis... But, even when the society was Christian, in Christendom, they knew that the jews, for instance, …More
Yeah, every single society in history, civilized, barbarian or whatever, has been born out of a religion and social crises are crises of meaning, of religion. This deal of the "separation of ..." is sick and antisocial... It is unique in history and is possible only for the mysterium iniquitatis... But, even when the society was Christian, in Christendom, they knew that the jews, for instance, were hostile but, also, that they should be left alone with their belieffs and practices and their lives, actually.... That's the Christian deal, go and evangelize, but respect freedom
F M Shyanguya
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@eticacasanova 🙏 Brilliant!
F M Shyanguya
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Bishop against Bishop ...

Contra Bp Schneider

If councils teaching in faith & morals can be corrected - they can’t, the Church is infallible in what she teaches in faith & morals, and in councils it is her in her supreme teaching - then The Second Vatican Council, the Church’s 21st Ecumenical Council, is still uncorrected and therefore is in better standing than the councils “already correct…More
Bishop against Bishop ...

Contra Bp Schneider

If councils teaching in faith & morals can be corrected - they can’t, the Church is infallible in what she teaches in faith & morals, and in councils it is her in her supreme teaching - then The Second Vatican Council, the Church’s 21st Ecumenical Council, is still uncorrected and therefore is in better standing than the councils “already corrected”.
giveusthisday
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I don't quite understand; in the article, Bishop Schneider says councils can be corrected or criticized, and gives several examples. On what do you base your claim that councils cannot be corrected?
F M Shyanguya
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“Bishop Schneider says councils can be corrected or criticized, and gives several examples.” That’s where he is in error or has been simplistic.

My saying so? Simply:

Think of the Apostles Council, the one in Jerusalem, what were the decrees from that Council, the prototype for the rest that followed?
philosopher
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I think what bishop Schneider means by correction, notice he says "explained", is clarification of clumsy wording that leaves no room for a heterodox or semi-heretical interpretation vis a clarification that confirms the Deposit of faith handed down through the Apostolic Tradition. Such a corrected understanding -Syllabus is greatly needed for Church.
F M Shyanguya
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@philosopher has spoken! 🙏.

I was thinking today of the post-conciliar Popes, Pope St John Paul II and Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI, a great philosopher and a great theologian respectively, great and brilliant minds, and both holy men. And they miss the “errors” of V2?!
F M Shyanguya
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Another approach:

Who is the inspirer and principle author of Scripture - The Holy Bible being the Church’s book? Does is contain error? Yet how many have stumbled by misinterpreting it. Cf. The number of biblically based Christian denominations [don’t they hold the inerrancy of Scripture?].
One more comment from F M Shyanguya
F M Shyanguya
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This is the approach those having issues with V2 teaching/decrees ought to take:

CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH > RESPONSES TO SOME QUESTIONS REGARDING CERTAIN ASPECTS OF THE DOCTRINE ON THE CHURCH
giveusthisday
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Thank God for Bishop Schneider!
F M Shyanguya
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Love him but he is incorrect here.
F M Shyanguya
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No Jettisoning or Correcting Vatican II
Jmy1975
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No V2 needs thrown out.
Lisi Sterndorfer
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John the Baptist was imprisoned because he refused to condone the king’s adultery. And Francis?
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