@Adrien La clé de cette question, c'est l'observance des 10 commandements de Dieu. Tous doivent les observer, même les protestants, tout comme ceux des autres religions. Il est dit qu'il y a de nombreuses demeures dans la Maison du Père. Précisément, il y a 7 Demeures au Ciel. Il y a le Ciel Propre aux catholiques qui se trouve au dessus des 6 autres Demeures. Les 6 autres Demeures qui correspondent aux autres religions. On pourrait dire que le chiffre '6', c'est le chiffre de l'homme. C'est le chiffre de l'imperfection. Mais le '7', c'est le Chiffre de Dieu qui est la Perfection. Le Bonheur Parfait se trouve au Ciel, au dessus des 6 autres Demeures. Les catholiques sont destinés au Ciel, parce qu'ils ont été fidèles à Jésus Christ et à la religion qu'il a fondé Lui-Même ! L'expression « Être au 7' Ciel » prend donc tout son sens ! Les protestants pieux auront une demeure à eux. Bien qu'ils ont suivi une religion fondée par des hommes, et non par Jésus-Christ, ils ne sont pas tous voués à l'enfer pour autant. Ils ont observé les commandements de Dieu, alors Dieu récompense selon le mérite et l'observance des commandements s'ils ont été pieux dans les limites de leur foi. Quand nous serons au Ciel, nous pourrons même les visiter, ainsi que les autres Demeures, mais eux ne le pourront pas. Ils ne pourront pas venir nous visiter. Ils seront plus limités qu'on pourra l'être, parce que la Perfection se trouve dans le Ciel Ultime, et non dans le leur ! Mme Colette Coulombe, Privilégiée de Sainte Anne parle brièvement de cette question très particulière. Je trouve que c'est tout à fait cohérent et juste. Voir à la 19' minute de cet extrait. Extrait du 16 Juillet 2009 - Journée de sainte Anne (youtube.com)
C'est moi qui a fait ce vidéo, ainsi que beaucoup d'autre. C'était à l'Église Ste-Geneviève à Québec lors d'une Journée de Sainte Anne. On peut s'en reparler.
Extraits Vidéo | Mission de sainte Anne - "LE CRI DE MARIE !" (wordpress.com)
Désolé de ne pas avoir traduit d'avance. Réciproquement, les gens peuvent faire la traduction automatique.
Interesting discourse. For what its worth, here is my take on it all.
A pre-condition for salvation is acceptance of Christ as Saviour and Baptism. Since Baptism is the rite of Christian initiation into the Catholic Church it logically follows that baptised protestants are de facto members of that same Church but without full access to the sacraments until they are completely united to it. This is recognised by the fact that converts to the Catholic Faith already baptised are not required to undergo baptism again. Equally important for them is that following entry into the Catholic Church they have access to all the Sacraments denied them by the Reformation. Thus the doctrine of “extra ecclesiam nulla salus,”remains intact and legitimate.
If a protestant was pious, ignorant, and did not fall into sin or if so, he repented, then he could be saved.
If a protestant is a former Catholic, he can not be saved because he rejected Jesus Christ Himself by rejecting His Mystical Body, an apostate protestant is also deprived of his ultimate rescue, the intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary because he rejected her also. For them Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus is applied.
Catholics and Eastern Orthodox (maybe not Nestorian Assyrians but Armenian pre-Chalcedonians as well) need to receive the Sacraments to be saved. If someone does not receive the Sacraments by his fault, God can or will deny him salvation.
Why do we need to be Catholic? All men should be part of the Mystical Body of our Lord, it is the will of God… He wants us to serve Him in the Truth, the way of perfection to become Saints, to become super elects in Heaven. Other religions can lead to corruption, they have traps. In the past, a small Chinese population practiced aldultery as the normal way to have children, the pagan Romans had sinful festivals, the Russian Orthodox Church accepts (or tolerates) non-abortive contraception (contraception is a sin but aside from this aspect, that could include certain hormonal pills that may be stealthily contraceptive!?!), etc.
Non-Christians need to be good and to have a spiritual glimpse of God above the dome of their false Olympus.
1John 2:2 Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
For non-Christians Mark 16:15-18 will be applied.
(Jesus) said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”
God will judge if the Gospel was properly announced to them. The preachers of the gospel are supposed to be priests or bishops, because only them have the power to heal the sicks, they have this power by virtue of their ordination (it’s extremely rare that someone else receives it Gratia Gratis Data like Saint André Bessette). If the preachers of the Gospel don’t use their powers or don’t believe they have them (including not performing exorcism), then they are altering the context Mark 16 was intended for.
The same could be true if they are changing the Gospel with heresies.
Last and not least, the preachers must not reverse the Evangelization program enshrined in the New Testament. In the beginning, they must resist to the temptation of preaching the name of Jesus, His death for our salvation, His resurrection and talking about the Holy Spirit. They must not say …so, there is a man …he is divine …he’s your savior…his name is Jesus….
This is advanced knowledge, and this program will not work or will convert a minority of people. It is exactly what happened in East Asia, and Southeast Asia.
The Eternal Father must be announced first!
Preachers of the Gospel must do exactly what Jesus would do with a pagan audience.
It could be something like this:
1° I have a great News for you.
2° The Kingdom of God has arrived among you.
3° There’s only one God.
4° God is your Father.
5° He created all things.
6° He is your creator.
7°He is good and merciful.
8°He wants to establish His Kingdom in your hearts.
9° All other gods are lies.
10° “The kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.” Mark 1:15
Afterward, the preachers must use parables to make their conversion and the knowledge of God intelligible. They must teach the kingdom of God is spiritual and that the Gospel is a message of love and holiness, a change of life.
After, they must heal the sicknesses of the new believers in front of the non believers, and cast away demons to prove the authenticity of the Gospel. Then, all nations will convert to God (or would have converted), because God can not lose, except when the clergy doesn’t obey Him, doesn’t do His Will, like the Synagogue did 2000 years ago.
If the Evangelization is done otherwise, the world will not be converted, and God will judge His ministers…
@Fiat Voluntas Tua
@Fiat Voluntas Tua
No protestant is without sin, yes but not all sins are worthy of eternal damnation.
1 John 5:16-17
If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death.
Protestants must repent of their wrongdoings, but they will be judge differently because they were not Catholic.
Maybe some received a good Catholic presentation, and they resisted to the grace of God?
The Blessed Anne Catherine Emmerich did not said that all Protestants were saved! She saw some of them. She said they were ignorant; how could they have acted like Catholic faithfuls?
If a protestant is a former Catholic, he can not be saved because he rejected Jesus Christ Himself by rejecting His Mystical Body.
It's a special kind of rejection because they were attached to the ''Tree of Life'', they were members of the Church.
Why do we need to be Catholic? All men should be part of the Mystical Body of our Lord, it is the will of God…
Yes, all men have the natural law, the law God put in all of us, but the law that was revealed by the Son of God, the perfect law, not everyone has it. Every non-Catholic will be judge according to the natural law and on what he knew that corresponds to the revelation in Jesus Christ.
If they were ignorant of the true Church, God will not send them to Hell for eternity just because they were born in the wrong house...
Thank you Fiat Voluntas Tua for your comments.
My initial statement was motivated by the readers and commentors thinking that the vision the Blessed Anne Catherine Emmerich is not authentic because it would be impossible for a protestant to go to purgatory, thus being saved.
You wrote about the responsibility to seek the truth (of course, not on a Catholic website during the nineteenth century).
First off, one needs to know he should search for something else, and unfortunately, some Protestants heard only there ‘s a church where people practice idolatry…
I will be the last one to try to describe all the conditions for them to be saved. I already explained a bit of what I think about how dangerous and risky it is to be a member of non-Catholic religion. Also, I excluded apostates, and I have no personal hope for protestants possessing a decent knowledge of Catholicism. I totally agree that in the One Catholic Church we have a great assurance to be saved if we are faithful and persevere until the end and it is part of the Church ’s ordre de mission to convert all the others. Even on this site, how many are members of self-proclaimed catholic sects. Therefore, it seems obvious to me how pertinent are the prayers for non-Catholics.
So going back to pious (ex) protestants (no one believes in Protestantism in Purgatory after their personal judgement), if they were genuinely pious, it includes humility, a life of prayer, etc. If they were ignorant, then we can rely on the theological doctrine of Invincible Ignorance.
But even the Blessed Pope Pius IX asks us to be prudent while considering Invincible Ignorance...
It is necessary to hold for certain that ignorance of the true religion, if that ignorance be invincible, is not a fault in the eyes of God. But who will presume to arrogate to himself the right to mark the limits of such an ignorance, holding in account the various conditions of peoples, of countries, of minds, and of the infinite multiplicity of human things? When delivered from the bonds of the body, we shall see God as He is, we will comprehend perfectly by what admirable and indissoluble bond the divine mercy and the divine justice are united. (Singulari Quadam Dec. 9, 1854)
My conclusion: I believe in the vision of the Blessed Anne Catherine Emmerich.
And hopefully we will agree on these statements:
-The dogma ‘’Only Catholics are saved’’ doesn’t exist, even when we speak of other Christians (Believers in the Divine Trinity).
-The Church has NO jurisdiction on God’s post-mortem judgement on any soul.
@Fiat Voluntas Tua
One more comment from Adrien
@Fiat Voluntas Tua
Thank you very much for this final comment, and for reading mine! I appreciate a lot you took time to share your thoughts… May God bless you too!!
In your last comment, you wrote:
‘’he also grants them the grace and the opportunity to know the truth at some point in their lives; and to seek it and to find it. Whether they disregard the opportunity is up to the individual's free will.’’
This affirmation is very puzzling to me, to say the least, on more than one aspect. I would have a few things to ask you about it, but since it is the end of our discussion, I will leave it there.
On my part, I will just mention this to complete my discourse:
-The Sacraments are necessary for the salvation of those who can receive them (excluding the others).
-The True Religion gives the possibility to go deeper into the knowledge of the Divine Will, and if we act accordingly, to receive a greater reward in Heaven.
1 Corinthians 15:41-42
There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory. So is it with the resurrection of the dead.
In my first comment, thinking about Catholicism, I mentioned:
''the way of perfection to become Saints, to become super elects in Heaven''.
------------------------------------------------
The site catholic.com, from the link you provided, teaches my stance concerning salvation for protestants, except that they set the bar much lower for them! I have two pages here. The first one is complete, and they quote the CCC that says the same thing as them. The second one has just the pertinent part.
Note to all: What is written below is not from me (Adrien), and the presence of these texts is not my approbation of this or that part of them.
1.
How Protestants Are Saved
Question:
Do Protestants go to heaven?
Answer:
It’s possible, although they wouldn’t be saved on account of their distinctive Protestant beliefs. All salvation comes by Jesus Christ and through his one Catholic Church. The Catechism of the Catholic Church elaborates on the possibility of eternal salvation for non-Catholic Christians and non-Christians:
How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Reformulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the head through the Church which is his body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on Earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and baptism and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.
This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the gospel of Christ or his Church but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation.
Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men (CCC 846-48, emphases added; footnotes omitted).
2.
What Does the Church Teach About Salvation For Protestants?
Jimmy Akin outlines the Catholic Church’s teachings on Protestants, salvation through invincible ignorance.
“What if someone knowingly refuses to accept something that Jesus willed us to have?”
If someone knew that the Catholic Church was founded by Jesus and that He wanted all of his followers to be united to it, and they said, “You know, I’m just not going to do that. I know Jesus wants me to do it, I know that he prayed for Christian unity on the night of the Last Supper, I know that’s a high on his priority list, but I’m just not going to do that,” well, then you’d have to question whether that person actually has a saving relationship with God, because he’s turning his back on something that’s fundamental and very important to Jesus, and therefore it looks, at least from outward appearances, like he’s cutting himself off from the means of grace that Jesus gave us. And so that person would be in spiritual jeopardy.
But that’s a different position than a person who doesn’t say that. You could have someone who, let’s say, was raised in a Protestant community, may have heard that Catholics believed Jesus founded the Catholic Church, but they don’t KNOW that; that hasn’t been proven to them, they haven’t seen sufficient evidence for that, and so through no fault of their own, they’ve never joined the Catholic Church–but they would if they knew that this was Jesus’s Church.
I know a lot of people who are in the Protestant community who would say, “Oh yeah, if I was convinced the Catholic Church was the one founded by Jesus, I would join it today.” Well, that person is not deliberately cutting himself off from from what Jesus would have him experience. He’s open to what Jesus would have him experience, and he’s already experiencing many elements of grace and sanctification. But he’s not deliberately refusing to do something he knows Jesus wants him to do. And so that person, even though they haven’t been fully incorporated into the Catholic Church, they’re still in a saving relationship with God. And so, if someone is not Catholic, through no fault of their own, but they’re otherwise responding to God’s grace, then they’ll be saved.
But if a person, whether they’re Catholic or not, refuses to do something of fundamental importance, like it could be not joining the Catholic Church, could be leaving, it could be any number of other grave things, like go out and commit murder or adultery; well, you’re deliberately defying the will of Christ in a fundamental matter there, and that will result in you being lost unless you repent. So everybody, both Protestant and Catholic, needs to be open to the grace that God wants us to have, and needs to be willing to respond to the call of Christ in all of these very fundamental matters.
All the saved, without exception, are saved by Christ's Catholic
Church. This is dogma. I leave all the details to God
I would never convert, and would never go to one again....but I've been to Protestant services (Episcopal) and (fundamentalist). The Episcopal one wasn't bad, but I knew it was a dean service. The fundamentalist one was nothing but noise, and meant nothing as well.
The Catholic Church teaches infallibly, “extra ecclesiam nulla salus,” or, “outside the Church there is no salvation.”
There have been multiple things in Anne Katherine Emmerich’s writings that I have questioned. Here is another one…