Former FSSP superior general says Lefebvre was a sedevacantist
Fr Joseph Bisig, co-founder and first superior of the SSP (until 1988 he was a member of the Priestly Society of Saint Pius X and knew Archbishop Levebvre well) said on November 24, 2018 during a lecture …More
- Lefebvre began to embrace the idea of sedevacantism that Paul VI was not a true pope, and therefore the Chair of Peter was empty. But the archbishop held this opinion largely outside the public sphere, as most of the priests in SSPX would be scandalized.
www.catholicregister.org/item/28530-tradition…
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F M Shyanguya
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SSPX: How is disobedience a good thing?
I don’t see anyway around this wickedness, the commission of the primordial offense in heaven and in paradise.
And on what grounds should we discount the testimony of an eye-witness?More
I don’t see anyway around this wickedness, the commission of the primordial offense in heaven and in paradise.
And on what grounds should we discount the testimony of an eye-witness?
Roberto 55
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Be Ye Separate
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The agony and confusion that you write of, has led me to believe that a primary lesson we learn while on this earth, is that we humans are unable to govern ourselves. We need Almighty God as our Governor.
I think it is a complete circle, right back to Adam and Eve's being fooled by satan, that they could be more, than what Almighty God had created them to be.
All the brutal wars throughout the …More
I think it is a complete circle, right back to Adam and Eve's being fooled by satan, that they could be more, than what Almighty God had created them to be.
All the brutal wars throughout the centuries, are a significant example that we humans fail at governing ourselves, we need Christ as King.
Jesus bless us, to live your Holy Teachings. Amen
My first year at the Angelicum was 1986-87. At the beginning of the Spring semester two English ex-seminarians from Econe were in our class who had just left Econe. Cardinal Ratzinger had arranged for a house (and chaplain) for them. One told me that they had decided to leave because Abp LeFebvre had given a homily saying the Chair of Peter was vacant. He added that LeF was surrounded by some hard …More
Some years ago he was ordained for an English diocese and is fairly well known in his home country. He is also still a friend.
philosopher
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Again, Dr. Bobus this is only hearsay. Did they provide you with a transcript of the homily?
I can equally attest that I personally know 4 SSPX seminarians who have assured me that they are being taught in their SSPX seminary education that Sedevacantism is a heretical position and not Catholic doctrine but is to be condemned.More
I can equally attest that I personally know 4 SSPX seminarians who have assured me that they are being taught in their SSPX seminary education that Sedevacantism is a heretical position and not Catholic doctrine but is to be condemned.
This is not a court of law. I'm simply telling you what a friend told me. I have no reason to doubt him, and apparently neither did Cardinal Ratzinger.
BTW, I used to teach with Fr Bisig.More
BTW, I used to teach with Fr Bisig.
Ultraviolet
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Ultraviolet
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W obronie Tradycji Kościoła
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F M Shyanguya
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@W obronie Tradycji Kościoła
Thank you for going to and sharing source documents.
“The remission of the excommunication was a measure taken in the field of ecclesiastical discipline: the individuals were freed from the burden of conscience constituted by the most serious of ecclesiastical penalties. This disciplinary level needs to be distinguished from the doctrinal level. The fact that the Society …More
Thank you for going to and sharing source documents.
“The remission of the excommunication was a measure taken in the field of ecclesiastical discipline: the individuals were freed from the burden of conscience constituted by the most serious of ecclesiastical penalties. This disciplinary level needs to be distinguished from the doctrinal level. The fact that the Society of Saint Pius X does not possess a canonical status in the Church is not, in the end, based on disciplinary but on doctrinal reasons. As long as the Society does not have a canonical status in the Church, its ministers do not exercise legitimate ministries in the Church. There needs to be a distinction, then, between the disciplinary level, which deals with individuals as such, and the doctrinal level, at which ministry and institution are involved. In order to make this clear once again: until the doctrinal questions are clarified, the Society has no canonical status in the Church, and its ministers – even though they have been freed of the ecclesiastical penalty – do not legitimately exercise any ministry in the Church.”
F M Shyanguya
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How articulate Pope BXVI:
“This will make it clear that the problems now to be addressed are essentially doctrinal in nature and concern primarily the acceptance of the Second Vatican Council and the post-conciliar magisterium of the Popes. The collegial bodies with which the Congregation studies questions which arise (especially the ordinary Wednesday meeting of Cardinals and the annual or biennial …More
“This will make it clear that the problems now to be addressed are essentially doctrinal in nature and concern primarily the acceptance of the Second Vatican Council and the post-conciliar magisterium of the Popes. The collegial bodies with which the Congregation studies questions which arise (especially the ordinary Wednesday meeting of Cardinals and the annual or biennial Plenary Session) ensure the involvement of the Prefects of the different Roman Congregations and representatives from the world’s Bishops in the process of decision-making. The Church’s teaching authority cannot be frozen in the year 1962 – this must be quite clear to the Society. But some of those who put themselves forward as great defenders of the Council also need to be reminded that Vatican II embraces the entire doctrinal history of the Church. Anyone who wishes to be obedient to the Council has to accept the faith professed over the centuries, and cannot sever the roots from which the tree draws its life.”
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F M Shyanguya
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Superb! Succinctly answers what is true ecumenism and us & Muslims [and others] worshipping the same God, albeit having different images of him
“Leading men and women to God, to the God who speaks in the Bible: this is the supreme and fundamental priority of the Church and of the Successor of Peter at the present time. A logical consequence of this is that we must have at heart the unity of all …More
“Leading men and women to God, to the God who speaks in the Bible: this is the supreme and fundamental priority of the Church and of the Successor of Peter at the present time. A logical consequence of this is that we must have at heart the unity of all believers. Their disunity, their disagreement among themselves, calls into question the credibility of their talk of God. Hence the effort to promote a common witness by Christians to their faith – ecumenism – is part of the supreme priority. Added to this is the need for all those who believe in God to join in seeking peace, to attempt to draw closer to one another, and to journey together, even with their differing images of God, towards the source of Light – this is interreligious dialogue. Whoever proclaims that God is Love "to the end" has to bear witness to love: in loving devotion to the suffering, in the rejection of hatred and enmity – this is the social dimension of the Christian faith, of which I spoke in the Encyclical Deus Caritas Est.”
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As Ultraviolet pointed out this is mere hearsay! Its just an opinion with no evidence, such as a voice or video recording of an actual conversation. Also, many times theologians like philosophers pose thought experiments and oposing viewpoints to speculate and debate. In the course of such a discussion with bishop A and Father b, just b/c bishop A floats out ideas which are not actually held by …More
It's as if one takes the arguments of St. Thomas Aquinas or Duns Scotus' preliminary formulations of opposing viewpoints that where at times better articulated than the heterodoxes who actually held those positions, then next asserting that Aquinas and Scotus are heretics because they stated the heterox position. What is intentionally left out is the final points made that refute and dismiss the heretical position and dismiss the actual orthodox positions held by Aqinas and Scotus.
This analogy can also be applied to Archbishop Lefebvre. A good recourse for Lefebvre's true positions citing primary source docs is Micheal Davies Apologia Pro Marcel Lefebvre. The man was a solidly orthodox Catholic to the core!
philosopher
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philosopher
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@Dr. Bobus I suppose it all depends, (like philosophy that has it's own share of sophistry), on the sociologist and their philosophical assumptions about the nature of being, epistemology, and human nature. There is a profound difference between the sociology of the positivist, structuralists, i.e. Comte, Marx, Saussure, Levi Strauss, and Lacan, the post-structuralist, i.e. Barthes, Derrida, and …More
I did find Fr. Benedict Ratzinger's two books: Without Roots: The West, Relativism, Christianity and Islam, and Values in a Time of Upheaval, plus his dialogues with Habermas to rely and utilize sociological data for his arguments.
You're saying Josef Pieper was a sociologist?
Certainly, man is a social creature because he has rational faculties, and certain aspects of that can be studied. That does not, however, put JP in the same area as Comte, Weber, Marx, et al. The material object (human society) is the same for all, but the formal object (obiectum formale et quod et quo) are different.
Due to the aforementioned, I …More
Certainly, man is a social creature because he has rational faculties, and certain aspects of that can be studied. That does not, however, put JP in the same area as Comte, Weber, Marx, et al. The material object (human society) is the same for all, but the formal object (obiectum formale et quod et quo) are different.
Due to the aforementioned, I don't think a Catholic philospher can proceed, beginning with society (or politics).
Ted McCarrick, late of the College of Cardinals, has a PhD in Sociology.
There was interest in Habermas among post WWII Catholic intellectuals because he was, like certain others, moving away from his Marxist roots--IMHO, he never really abandoned them.
I have never heard of a Thomist named J Messmer (my doctorate is in Thomistic Studies). The only two German Thomists I know of are Martin Grabmann and Pieper. Grabmann was a well known, mostly for philosophy. Pieper still is going strong, although his lectures on Hope leave me scratching my head--I don't think they reflect Thomas' thought. It's curious that Germany, with his love and respect for learning, never produced a Thomist the equal of Ramirez or Garrigou LaGrange. Probably their discomfort with analogy is a major factor.
BTW, it's orientEm not orientUm.
Ultraviolet
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F M Shyanguya
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W obronie Tradycji Kościoła
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philosopher
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@F M Shyanguya don't get too excited my friend with the "ah hah now I got you" sentiment. Your equivacating policy with doctrine. The pastoral policy administration of the Churches outreach to modern man aka ecumenism, collegiality, etc., is only policy not doctrine.
True ecumenism is dialoguing with Muslims and Protestants and neo-pagans charitably with the intended goal of converting them to …More
True ecumenism is dialoguing with Muslims and Protestants and neo-pagans charitably with the intended goal of converting them to Christ and His Church. This does not include hand holding, joint prayer services and ice cream socials with no intended goals of bringing them into the one true faith.
F M Shyanguya
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philosopher
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There are no lay members in the SSPX priestly order. There are some consecrated religious brothers and nuns associated with their apostolic work. Some lay people do register with one of the orders chapels as supporters. I belong to a diocesan parish that offers the Usus Antiquior mass in addition to the Novus Ordo albeit in the traditional mode - ad Orientum and kneeling on the tongue.
I do also …More
I do also support any Catholic order that is orthodox, does not reject the pope and the universal Magisterium and the Apostolic Deposit of Faith.
That would include the SSPX, the FSSPS, and everywhere that a priest celebrates the Tridentine mass. I do not deny the Mass of Paul VI is valid nor in being in communion with orthodox Catholics who for various reasons attend the Novus Ordo.
F M Shyanguya
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Just learned something about the society that I didn’t know. Thank you.
God bless you and yours and his work at your hands.More
God bless you and yours and his work at your hands.
philosopher
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F M Shyanguya
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Wow! Charity for one’s brethren shown right there!
I will!
I will specifically remember the society during this part
V /. Oremus pro unitate apostolatus.
R /. Ut omnes unum sint, sicut tu Pater in me et ego in te: ut sint unum, sicut et nos unum sumus.
V /. Omne regnum divisum contra se, desolábitur.
R /. Et omnis cívitas vel domus divisa contra se non statbit.
when I pray daily:
- Opus Dei Preces …More
I will!
I will specifically remember the society during this part
V /. Oremus pro unitate apostolatus.
R /. Ut omnes unum sint, sicut tu Pater in me et ego in te: ut sint unum, sicut et nos unum sumus.
V /. Omne regnum divisum contra se, desolábitur.
R /. Et omnis cívitas vel domus divisa contra se non statbit.
when I pray daily:
- Opus Dei Preces
I believe this exchange has borne fruit. Thank you @philosopher.
F M Shyanguya
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@philosopher
“That would include the SSPX,”
You can’t be doing that.More
philosopher
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@F M Shyanguya Its not that simple, not all excommunications in the history of the Church have been valid or just as arguably in this case, where the defect of motivation being a tool to silence criticism of how the bishops at the time (1988) were implementing the policies of Vatican 2, one could even argue as revenge against or punishment of Lefebvre for not going along with the changes and refusing …More
It's true, Lefebvre consecrated 4 bishops without permission but he did not do so with the intention of breaking from the Church but out of a belief in a crisis of modernity that was having an effect of the life of the Church, which is allowed under Canon Law. You may disagree as to whether there was or is a state of crisis but there need not be an official crisis declared by the Pope in order for an actual crisis to exist, which is not a requirement under CanonLaw. A crisis can in actuality exist and be ignored by eclessiastics. The main issue is whether Lefebvre believed it and acted for the good of saving souls. If So, this is a benevolent, not a malicious intent and action. We can not read his conscience or judge the man, but can only leave him to wisdom and mercy of God.
F M Shyanguya
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For the faithful, until the Church decides.
PS Just finished my PM prayers and I prayed for the Society.More
PS Just finished my PM prayers and I prayed for the Society.
F M Shyanguya
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SSPX: How is disobedience a good thing?
With this from their own mouths, everything else is wicked rationalization and explanation.More
With this from their own mouths, everything else is wicked rationalization and explanation.