Schönborn: Vatican Has Recognized Medjugorje As A “Shrine”

"But just because the place is a false apparitions with all these miracles and wonders created by demons it does not mean I can't pray there..."

True, but surely there are better places to pray. You can pray in a brothel or a bar catering to homosexuals, by why go there in the first place?

In this case, doing so would tacitly legitimize a fraud.

"they went to places infested by demons to draw them away."

True again, but a.) as you rightly note, you're not a saint. They also expelled the demons and nobody's done that to this wretched Bosnian backwater.

"we are the church militant, so let's behave like such."

True for a third time, but... that contradicts "We need to leave our differences aside and do what's right;"

Those differences separate truth from falsehood. Anyone can use the "we need to leave our differences aside" argument to ignore, well... every doctrinal outrage pushed today. Here's the official portrait of America's Pro-Abortion Catholic President, now let's all set our differences aside and support his social policies, right?

@Live Mike: I don't put myself forward to anything, but I am lic. theol. and I have to say that Starlight 777 is right. He (or she) does not claim any special theological education, he/she is absolutely right in her considerations and conviction concerning Medjugorje.
If you think that the quotation you cited is "heretical" then you have little or no understanding of theological language. And there is absolutely no contradiction between the messages of Fatima and the messages of Medjugorje. Dr. Mark Miravalle - a well known and renowned Mariologist - wrote his dissertation about this subject. If you want a solid theological discussion, you should read his thesis. Maybe you come to understand that your assertion doesn't hold water.

@Mike Live: For your information: “Message of Medjugorje: Marian Message to the Modern World PB Book 1986 by Mark I. Miravalle (Author) Through concise theological analyses, this book demonstrates that the messages reported by seven Yugoslavian youths from Medjugorje and attributed to the Blessed Virgin Mary represent an authentic embodiment of Catholic doctrine.The contents of the Medjugorjian message are also said to represent a post-Conciliar formulation of the approved Marian messages. Mark Miravalle has done an excellent job in showing that the apparitions of the Blessed Virgin at Medjugorje are in continuity with the apparitions at Lourdes and Fatima and reflect the teachings of the church, as affirmed at Vatican II. (Giles Dimock) About the Author Mark I. Miravalle is Assistant Professor of Theology at the Franciscan University of Steubenville

@petrus100452 I am nothing but am very thankful to God for all I was allowed to learn in seminary for 7½ years (B.A. in Thomistic Philosophy and an M.Div. in Theology). Catholics, who've studied Christology know the citations are heretical.
Please read the following solid Catholic publications:
"Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma" by Ludwig Ott, The Doctrine of God the Redeemer
"The Catechism Explained 1899" by Francis Spirago, The Apostles' Creed: The Person of the Redeemer
"The Catechism of the Council of Trent 1923 translation", Articles I to VI
"The Sources Of Catholic Dogma" by Henry Denzinger,
ST. DIONYSIUS
ST. DAMASUS I - Council of Rome, 382
COUNCIL OF EPHESUS, 431
ST. LEO I
COUNCIL OF CHALCEDON, 451
ST. GELASIUS I
JOHN II
ST. GREGORY I, THE GREAT
HONORIUS I
ST. MARTIN I
The Lateran Council, 649
Council of Toledo XI, 675
Roman Council, 680
COUNCIL OF CONSTANTINOPLE III, 680-681
Council of Toledo XV, 685
Council of Toledo XVI, 693
Council of Frankfort, 794
Council of Friuli (Friaul), 796

@Live Mike: I have read them all. Your argument holds no water. Maybe you still didn't grasp what these saints and councils were saying. Do you realize how many excellent theologians you are discrediting? You say you are nothing, but you think you know better than John Paul II, Mark Miravalle, Fr. Benedict Groeschel, Rene Laurentin, Fr. Gabriel Amorth, just to name a few. Quite something for "a nothing".

"but I am lic. theol. and I have to say that Starlight 777 is right." @petrus100452

No evidence presented showing Starlight is right. Credentials are not enough. Fallacious Appeal To Authority,

Also, Anecdotal Evidence (a fallacy here since no evidence of credentials supplied).

"If you think that the quotation you cited is "heretical" then you have little or no understanding of theological language."

No True Scotsman Fallacy (Fallacious Appeal to Purity).

"And there is absolutely no contradiction between the messages of Fatima and the messages of Medjugorje."

Unsupported claim.

Maaaaan... your theology courses did NOT include "Intro to Logic" and "Principles of Debate". How on earth can a "licensed theologian" defend The Church without knowing how to effectively argue/ counter-argue his position?

No wonder Holland is essentially a Muslim country, now. Look at the losers we have on "our side". :P

"Dr. Mark Miravalle - a well known and renowned Mariologist - wrote his dissertation about this subject."

Let's Level-Up that Fallacious Appeal to Authority. He wrote a dissertation... whoo... o.O Big deal.. :D Seriously. .

"Maybe you come to understand that your assertion doesn't hold water."

Maybe you should quote (and link) citations from Dr. Miravalle's work that disprove @Live Mike claims , instead.

"About the Author Mark I. Miravalle is Assistant Professor of Theology at the Franciscan University of Steubenville"

LOL... Petrus is literally cut n' pasting from the Amazon extract.
amazon.com/Message-Medjugorje-Mark-I-Miravalle/dp/0819152897

Since you're is not citing your source (I had to go chek), this is technically plagiarism. Naughty, naughty. Don't they teach licensed theologians how important it is to document their sources? ;-)

Just to clarify, I'm not fighting @Live Mike's battles for him. I'm just showing how incompetent you are at fighting your own. :D

"You say you are nothing, but you think you know better than John Paul II, Mark Miravalle, Fr. Benedict Groeschel, Rene Laurentin, Fr. Gabriel Amorth..."

Oh lovely, another GTV Psychic who knows what other users think. pic related :P

@petrus wrote, "I have read them all." Wonderful, and having read all of them you can help the ignorant readers, like myself, to comprehend & understand what the messages of 2 July 2017 and 2 November 2017 meant in accordance with the Solemn Dogmatic Doctrine of the Catholic Church.
[...] "my most beloved Son" [...]"He who was man; He who was and is God – one and triune;"
rosasparalagospa.com/…de-julio-de-2017-en-medjugorje-bosnia-herzegovina/ +
"Never forget that my Son, one and triune, loves you."
rosasparalagospa.com/…oviembre-de-2017-en-medjugorje-bosnia-herzegovina/ +
How many persons are there in Jesus Christ? How many natures are there in Jesus Christ? Does Jesus Christ, Resurrected and Glorified, have a human nature?
How do the experts reconcile the apparent contradictions?
What does the title "Mother of God" given to the Blessed Virgin Mary mean?

Additionally, these men never had a chance to review the messages of 2017.
Pope John Paul II died 2 April 2005
Fr. Benedict Groeschel died 3 October 2014
Fr. Gabriel Amorth died 16 September 2016
Fr. Rene Laurentin died 10 September 2017

I don't consider this latest news an indication that the apparitions will be confirmed as of supernatural origin.

Every person I have ever spoken with (and they all were pious) who has visited Medjugorje I have asked: Have you been to Fatima? The answer has always been No.

@petrus100452 The answers to the questions, you've refused to answer have already been solemnly defined as Doctrine of the Catholic Church and those answers expose the heresy within the messages of Medjugorje. [Something you don't want to see.] No... Catholics don't read authors who confirm a "bias." Catholics read the unalterable unchanging immutable Truth which has been faithfully passed down to us.

"The apostles entrusted the "Sacred deposit" of the faith (the depositum fidei), contained in Sacred Scripture and Tradition, to the whole of the Church. "By adhering to [this heritage] the entire holy people, united to its pastors, remains always faithful to the teaching of the apostles, to the brotherhood, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. So, in maintaining, practicing and professing the faith that has been handed on, there should be a remarkable harmony between the bishops and the faithful." - Catechism of the Catholic Church - Paragraph #84

"O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you. Avoid the godless chatter and contradictions of what is falsely called knowledge" - 1 Timothy 6:20 (RSVCE)

"Follow the pattern of the sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus; guard the truth that has been entrusted to you by the Holy Spirit who dwells within us." - 2 Timothy 1:13-14 (RSVCE)

@Live Mike: I don't "refuse" answers. I just think it is pointless to explain something to someone who is convinced that he already knows the "unalterable, unchanging, immutable Truth" and consequently shuts himself off to any new understanding. Jesus told His apostles that He had to say a lot more, but that they were not ready to understand it. That is why he promised the Holy Spirit Who will guide us to the fullness of the Truth. But since you think that you already know the fullness of Truth, any answer or explanation is pointless. I think the future holds some pretty unexpected surprises for you. We will see.

@petrus100452: That's curious, because most people I know who observe the 5 First Saturdays reject Medjugorje and accept the condemnation in the Letter to Thierry Boutet, the editor of Famille Chrétienne, written by Bishop Ratko Peric on October 2, 1997. The judgement of the ordinary of the diocese (the local bishop) has always been the standard for approbation or condemnation of an apparition. In the case of Medjugorje, the Bishop of Mostar did something unique, powerful and significant. In this letter Bishop Ratko Peric wrote that he judges the alleged apparitions to be proven False and Not Supernatural.
———————————————————————
Mostar October 2, 1997
Protocol Number: 1267/97

Honorable Mr. Boutet,

I am answering your letter of September 29, 1997 received by fax from the Nunciature of Sarajevo […]

On the basis of the serious study of the case by 30 of our ‘studiosi’ [academics] (well three Commissions), on my episcopal experience of five years in the Diocese, on the scandalous disobedience that surrounds the phenomenon, on the lies that are at times put into the mouth of the “Madonna”, on the unusual repetition of “messages” of over 16 years, on the strange way that the “spiritual directors” of the so-called “visionaries” accompany them through the world making propaganda of them, on the practice that the “Madonna” appears at the “fiat” (let her come!) of the “visionaries”,

my conviction and position is not only non constat de supernaturalitate [the supernaturality is not proven] but also the other formula constat de non supernaturalitate [the non-supernaturality is proven] of the apparitions or revelations of Medjugorje. [...]

(Signed and affixed with the Episcopal Seal)
———————————————————————
"constat de non supernaturalitate" means:
– the non-supernaturality is proven
– it is evident to be of non-supernatural origin
– it is established not supernatural
Incidentally, the local bishops of the following sites NEVER pronounced the type of condemnation we see in Medjugorje:
Quito, La Salette, Fatima, Tre Fontane, San Sebastián de Garabandal, and Akita.

@frawley: the "wisdom of the church" has made many mistakes with regard to mystical experiences and private revelations: sr. Faustina, padre Pio, Akita, Amsterdam, presently Medjugorje, etc. "Wisdom is justified by her deeds." And the deeds from Medjugorje are very good indeed: countless conversions, several new religious communities originated in Medjugorje, many works of charity, countless healings (for all spiritual healings and deliverances from (drugs)addictions, countless prayergroups all over the world and above all: hope for the Church and for humanity. Believe and love the Queen of Peace!

If there are no doubt about the fruits, then why disdain the apparitions? One of the main points that the Virgin asks for is to pray for the conversion of unbelievers. Unbelievers are responsible for all the problems today that we are facing. Fasting on bread and water on Wednesdays and Fridays is what the Virgin has asked us to do. Praying all the mysteries of the rosary everyday is what the Virgin has asked us to do. Reconciling with each other and with God is what the Virgin has asked us to do. Reading scripture every day is what the Virgin has asked us to do as well as going to confession at least every month and attending Holy Mass as often as possible. I do not understand why this apparition gets so much hostility from devout Catholics. We should be doing everything we can to make reparation for the grave sins committed everyday and for the conversion of sinners.

@Starlight777 Our Lady, the Destroyer of all heresies, cannot contradict Herself nor the Teachings of the Catholic Church. While Fatima was critical of Vatican II [see Rev. Ingo Döllinger, St. Padre Pio] Medjugorje has clearly embraced the Counciliar and or Post-Conciliar Documents of Vatican II. Fatima and Medjudgorje are diametrically opposed and fundamentally irreconcilable no matter how many superficial veneer-like similarities may exist. To give just one theologically problematic example of which there are many... Please visit the official Messages of Medjudgorje website and then look at the approved translation of the message on July 2, 2017 and on November 2, 2017. Whatever it is that appears there said, "[...] my most beloved Son also feels it: He who, through his merciful love, is always sending me to you anew; He who WAS man; He who WAS and IS God – ONE and TRIUNE" "Never forget that MY SON, ONE and TRIUNE, loves you." [emphasis added] If one is unable to find the theological errors in both of these statements then one doesn't know the Catholic Faith. The Queen of Heaven would never make such serious mistakes. The Blessed Virgin Mary has a unique relationship with the Three Divine Persons of the Most Holy Trinity. God created the Blessed Virgin Mary as Daughter of the Heavenly Father, Mother of the Divine Son, and Spouse of the Holy Ghost. It is erroneous to say the Blessed Virgin Mary is the Mother of the Most Holy Trinity or that Jesus Christ is Triune. Furthermore, Jesus Christ is One Divine Person (The Second Person) Hypostatically United with two natures (human and Divine). Jesus Christ after His Passion, Death, Resurrection and Ascension never lost or divorced Himself from His human nature. To say that Jesus WAS man but no longer IS man is heresy. It is impossible for Our Lady to make these kinds of grave errors. However, it is very possible that a poorly trained or theologically ignorant con artist, deceiver and fraudster would make such a mistake.

Thank you for taking the time to respond to my post. I am not a theologian so although I try to read each message and let it seep into my understanding and let it help me live my Faith, I do not try to find error in the messages because for the most part, I believe that my Mother is appearing there and has urged us unceasingly to conversion over these last forty years. I do believe that the people that try to live the messages of Medjugorje should be commended in part for their prayers and penances that have averted annihilation by nuclear war. This was particularly evident in about the years 1982-1987. satan was enraged about that and stirred up hatred and dissension in Bosnia in the 1990's. I think if Catholics banded together in a unified way and prayed and fasted as she has advised us for forty years, the triumph of her immaculate heart would have already happened.